DIY discussion - Increasing power to the G25 & G27 wheels

[simul8r 114]

No, I don't have the answer to this and please don't mention that over priced ARC mod which I don't think they sell the kit anymore.  I've done as much as I could to mod my G27 wheel by adding springs to help with centering, added cooling fans to chill the motors and of course changed out the rim for one with a larger diameter and trust me when I say this - I can easily jump online and drop a c-card for a newer and higher end wheel like the Thrustmaster T500 but I'm the type to squeeze every bit of satisfaction out my gear for the time being.  So here it is....I'm no electronics guru and from what I've read from some of the threads within this community there must be a few megaminds out there capable of coming up with a DIY solution even if it means boosting the G25 & G27 FFB a mere 10% more.  Could I ask any of you fine gentlemen or ladies for your help and provide your insights towards this discussion?

 

Thanks in advance.

[Gunstar 615]

Sim, there MUST be something you can do with PVC to solve this problem... right?? =)

[simul8r 114]

Sim, there MUST be something you can do with PVC to solve this problem... right?? =)

hmmm, nope - not enough room for a 'T' connection

[Ray Bernard 11]

I have mine turned to 100% in the logitech profiller and to 50 in the I Racing options menu out of a possible max of 59.8.  My dampening is set to 79 out of 100 and the min force to 20. The wheel jiggles and rattles when I am not holding on to it. I tried to turn the setting in the Logitech profiler above 100 and it gets pretty crazy. I have a 15" wheel mounted to the G-27 which lessens the effect and power due to the increased diameter and more leverage on the wheel by the driver. Exactly how powerful would you like it to be?

[Johnny Carr 106]

I have mine turned to 100% in the logitech profiller and to 50 in the I Racing options menu out of a possible max of 59.8.  My dampening is set to 79 out of 100 and the min force to 20. The wheel jiggles and rattles when I am not holding on to it. I tried to turn the setting in the Logitech profiler above 100 and it gets pretty crazy. I have a 15" wheel mounted to the G-27 which lessens the effect and power due to the increased diameter and more leverage on the wheel by the driver. Exactly how powerful would you like it to be?

Do you know what saturation clipping is?Chances are you are no longer receiving any tactile feed back from that wheel now which is what FFB is designed to do.

[BrEaKnDiSh 24]

All the ARC mod does is beef up the H-Bridge and supply it with more power and voltage from a bigger PSU.

 

Theres some knowledgeable chaps in this thread on RDepartment that may be able to help you: http://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=274631

[simul8r 114]

All the ARC mod does is beef up the H-Bridge and supply it with more power and voltage from a bigger PSU.

 

Theres some knowledgeable chaps in this thread on RDepartment that may be able to help you: http://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=274631

It appears you have more knowledge than what I had BrEaKnDiSh.  I was googling mostly boost circuits since that seemed to be the primary 'gadget' of which ARC's basic kit consisted of, the other stuff could be obtained elsewhere.

 

And yes, I've actually read that thread a couple of days ago.  Found it very interesting, if what they say is true, that Thrustmaster T500's motors was stronger then Fanatec's CSR Elite's, and I quote:

 

"...The 1.13.044.236 (the motor in the Thrustmaster T500, also a Bühler motor) are rated at 150mNm of torque, 100mNm continuous and 640mNm startup.

The1.13.046.401/404 (my Bühler motors) are rated at 60mNm of torque, 45mNm continuous and 290mNm startup. (So in Fanatec's dual-motor config, you'd basically double those to 120mNm, 90mNm, and 580mNm). By using these motors, I should effectively be getting about the same strength as the T500, depending on the gear ratio difference, and considerably stronger at the motor if I go the overvolting route..."

 

I think I read elsewhere that the G27 motors are rated only at 24nMn a piece?  Does that mean for dual motors would be a total of 48nMn, again, I don't know.  But I'd be a happy camper if were able to double that, yes?

[BrEaKnDiSh 24]

Im not as clever as those guys but I think the answer is basically yes, 2 x 24nM would be 48nM. I don't know if you can double it because you'd be upping the voltage to the motors quite a bit and might burn them out.

 

I bet theres a electronics guy out there who could tell us exactly what the guys at ARC did. Its hard to tell because they encased the 'booster' in resin so theres no clue whats in there. My guess is more powerful mosfets but Im not sure...

[posimosh 23]

Dude, add a couple holes to the wheel base, its the easiest way to increase cooling to the rig.  The rig gets weak because it overheats.

[simul8r 114]

Dude, add a couple holes to the wheel base, its the easiest way to increase cooling to the rig.  The rig gets weak because it overheats.

Dude, guess you missed my first post stating I added fans (supply air vent holes included) to chill the motors.  What I want to do is basically add voltage 'NOS' to the motors themselves.

 

BUMP....aside from BrEaKnDiSh anybody else have any ideas how to do this?

[mrbasherman 41]

You should be able to desolder the current mosfets and drop in some new ones which are preferably more efficient and have better power handling. Then run a power supply with maybe 12 volts more, so you'd be at 36v. You'd want to put some heatsinks on the new mosfets and the motor cans as well, both those things can be obtained easily enough. Then vent the case with a large fan, run ducts in onto the mosfets and motors. It could end up looking really DIY or it could look super cool... It all depends on your skills.

 

I'm in Redmond, WA so If you need someone to remove the mosfets for you and replace them, I can do that. It's maybe a 15 minute job.

 

That said, the stock mosfets might be able to handle the added voltage and amps already, though they really should be properly heatsinked if that is done. Please don't just hook up a new power supply.

 

Lastly, while I'm about 50 minutes from you... I don't have time to do the whole thing, as much as I'd love to. I can help here and there and take care of soldering the mosfets though.

[simul8r 114]

Well thank you very much mrbasherman, really appreciate the offer.  What I'd like to do is get another g27 or 25 for the actual frankesteining and save mine for the final build, but I wouldn't mind picking your knowledge and cross examine mine for now.  Wished I had a pic of the circuit board and maybe perhaps you can point out these mosfets you speak of.  Hmmm, I'll see what I can come with on my end.

[mrbasherman 41]

This page has a pretty decent rundown of all the bits inside, including a photo of the board.

 

http://www.macnetwork.co.uk/logitech/English%20PDF.html

 

Check craigslist, I see them on there often enough that you should be able to spot one. Hey, check this out, I just looked: http://seattle.craigslist.org/tac/vgm/3818850671.html  It's in tacoma!

 

In fact, if you buy it... I'll take the pedals off your hands. I have a friend that is looking for a set of pedals. (unless you want them) Just let me know the cost.

[simul8r 114]

Looking to experiment, does anybody have a g27 wheel that does not function or in need of repairs and is willing to donate for a DIY cause?  I can offer to pay for it but it must be very reasonable since it is nonfunctional.  Shoot me private message and appreciate it.

[SupaG27 0]

Hi Guys

 

I think you are really wasting your time trying to power up a G27 etc. As you mentioned, the FFB strength is measured in MNM which is Milli newton metres.(the motor in the Thrustmaster T500, also a Bühler motor) are rated at 150mNm of torque, 100mNm continuous and 640mNm startup   In other words not even a tenth of a newton metre up to maybe just over half!!!! thats only half a newton metre. The real mcoy wheels with direct drive are putting out up to 20+ NM or over 100 times the strength of the poor old T500. Best you save your money ( thousands) if you really want real strong realistic FFB. Check out Leo Bodnars new Wheel just out now called Simsteering. That baby puts out 24NM and goes up to a massive 48NM. Now this wheel will actually give you a good workout and will take some getting used to.

[TheJoker 0]

@SupaG27 i think you are wrong. Im not sure but i guess you left out the fact that the t500 (or basically any wheel) has a transmission of about 1:20 so the torque would be 20 times higher than the ffb motors torque.

edit: Also dude i want to see you turn a wheel having 100 times the force of a t500rs. I mean F1 drivers are pretty well trained, but this would be impossible for any human.

[simul8r 114]

Hi Guys

 

I think you are really wasting your time trying to power up a G27 etc. As you mentioned, the FFB strength is measured in MNM which is Milli newton metres.(the motor in the Thrustmaster T500, also a Bühler motor) are rated at 150mNm of torque, 100mNm continuous and 640mNm startup   In other words not even a tenth of a newton metre up to maybe just over half!!!! thats only half a newton metre. The real mcoy wheels with direct drive are putting out up to 20+ NM or over 100 times the strength of the poor old T500. Best you save your money ( thousands) if you really want real strong realistic FFB. Check out Leo Bodnars new Wheel just out now called Simsteering. That baby puts out 24NM and goes up to a massive 48NM. Now this wheel will actually give you a good workout and will take some getting used to.

 

@SupaG27 i think you are wrong. Im not sure but i guess you left out the fact that the t500 (or basically any wheel) has a transmission of about 1:20 so the torque would be 20 times higher than the ffb motors torque.

edit: Also dude i want to see you turn a wheel having 100 times the force of a t500rs. I mean F1 drivers are pretty well trained, but this would be impossible for any human.

 

Good to see other views on this.  Honestly, I'd like to try either the T500rs or the Bodnar wheel for comparison.  But for now, I'm just hoping to squeeze out as much as possible out of my substandard but reliable Logi G27 wheel.  Bascially, I'm trying to see this thru the ole backyard, DIY route wherein everybody profits from without having to take out a loan.  I find this, genuinely, as part of the fun by way of creating your own custom rig.  For us DIY'rs that is what it's all about.

 

Anyways, I thought of what mrbasherman posted earlier above, "That said, the stock mosfets might be able to handle the added voltage and amps already, though they really should be properly heatsinked if that is done. Please don't just hook up a new power supply."  Well, guess what?  Since I did add fans/vents to my wheel I proceeded to do some searching for a slightly stronger power supply on ebay.  The current stock PSU for the G27 is rated with an output 24vdc, 1.75~2.0amp with a equivalent 42-48watts maximum.  I found a 24vdc, 2.1amp PSU and replaced the stock onto my wheel.  The newer PSU should offer an additional 2.4watts for a total of 50.4watts.  So far, I haven't detected any smoke or heat issues at this time since I've yet to put it through an actual workout in rfactor and leo's ffb/realfeel combo.  If all goes well, I'm thinking of going a little higher like a 24vdc 2.3amp providing 55.2watts total.  It would be easier to figure out what the stock mosfets could handle and just go with the closes PSU rated but for now I'm limited to sacrificing my wheel and little expense for experimentation for, hopefully, the greater good.

 

More to come, of course.

[simul8r 114]

Hmmm, just found a PSU rated for 28vdc @ 1.8amp or 2.2amp, that would be 50.4 ~ 61.6 watts.  Decisions, decisions...which caliber of bullet should I load up into my wheel in a game of Russian roulette?

[TheJoker 0]

A PSU that can supply more amperes is not going to change anything to the ffb. there is way more to it, but increasing the maximum PSU watts doesnt mean the wheel will use the extra watts. The second one though could work, but dont do it. Just dont.

[simul8r 114]

A PSU that can supply more amperes is not going to change anything to the ffb. there is way more to it, but increasing the maximum PSU watts doesnt mean the wheel will use the extra watts. The second one though could work, but dont do it. Just dont.

Ok if not 28vdc how about something lower like 25vdc to be on the safe side. Found one with 2.5amps, that will be 62.5 watts for what it's worth.

[mrsh 0]

hi, i am a newbie here. disscus

did u guys had tried to change the original motor to a step motor for more torque instead of just increasing supply voltage?

[TheJoker 0]

Sorry to say but both of this is bs. 1.Your psu might have 62.5 watts max but your wheel wont use it.

even if you had 25V and 100 amps the ffb would not be any stronger. and a step motor is rly crap because it isnt very smooth and you need a controller. The only thing the could work is getting a very strong amplifier and make the ffb signal stronger, maybe with better motors.

[mrsh 0]

so just change with a stronger motor (the FET also) will be easier. i didnt unassemble the G27 before, what is the size of the original motor? 540? 380? is there enough room to install a bigger size motor?

and how the 2 motors work? 1 motor turn 1 direction(1 for left, 1 for right)?   or 2 motors works together on both (L/R)?

[TheJoker 0]

At least you know what a re you talking about . Size is 540, i think they work together but they are working far under their limits, so stronger motors still wont change anything. @Simul8tor the only thing you culd try is remove some turns from the motors, but it is risky and you should cool the controller. But this is the only simple thing you can do to make the ffb stronger

[TheJoker 0]

btw guys i disassembled my g25 because i am working on a button mod, i could try and measure volts and amperes on the motors.