Need help with G25 setup and feel please

[Koshi Eternium 0]

Yo sim racers.

I've been trying to get into sim racing for a while with my G25, but after a couple of years trying I can't seem to be competitive and I think that is down to not knowing exactly what forces I should be feeling at the wheel, so when I race the car doesn’t drive for me like I see it handling turns at the speeds used by other drivers when spectating them, my car seems to be sluggish even when I use their exact car setup I’m around a second or so slow and if I push harder I miss apexes and/or run out of road when tracking out. Even after dozens of forum and racer suggested settings for the G25 I’m totally confused as to how my wheel is meant to react while racing.

If anyone out there in sim racing land can help clear up my confusion so I can focus on the task of driving I’d greatly appreciate it, because I’m at a loss what to do.

Thanks in advanced

Koshi.

[ocaxeman 26]

@ "Koshi Eternium"~Hey Koshi,I am not sure what exactly you are asking by " "suggested settings for the G25 I’m totally confused as to how my wheel is meant to react while racing."

Generally speaking ,setup/settings depend on what titles you are racing,and since you did not list any titles,I really can not give you any advice as far as a good basic "G25/G27" setup,but from reading your post I am not sure that is your problem,it seems you are struggling to "Keep up with the pack" more or less correct? and you are always coming in last in most races ? well my friend,there is an old saying that goes~"do NOT race the other drivers, Race the track itself"~what that basically means,is do not overdrive your car trying to keep up with the front runners,you will just tear up your tires,overshoot your corners,overheat your brakes..etc,etc~the best advice I can give you is this..there is no magical shortcut to becoming a better racer man, going out and buying a thousand dollar ultra high end wheel & stellar pedal set will NOT make you a better racer,and I am a firm believer in "Practice makes Perfect"..[well..maybe not perfect ,but faster 4sure!..hehe] also do not get down on yourself,the guys who are kicking your ass probably know the track upside down and sideways bro,and also are probably more experienced racers..learn from them,follow them and see what lines they take,watch for where they brake and where they go full out,then try to SLOWLY improve your lap times,by a tenth of a second..not a full second ...put simply,Patience and Practice are your best friends when it comes to becoming a better all around racer~Cheers ,best of luck & GR8 Racing m8

[Johnny Carr 106]

I agree 100%

Oh and I've been sim racing since 1996 and I'm still a second slower than the next guy.

[Koshi Eternium 0]

Thanks for your reply

I've been playing several titles, mostly LFS with some SimBin games for flavour and hopefully getting an iRacing subscription when I get a new PC.

I am able drift pretty good on LFS, but when it comes to grip racing I don't come dead last but I'm defferntly off the pace in the middle somewhere, I can't seem to get the car to react as I see when spectating other drivers. Even after a few hunderd laps of a track using their setup, cause while I know what bump and rebound and the likes are I'm not much of a mechanic to translate all that for a specific track, the car feels like it has no more speed on the strights or grip in the corners to give me and be able to stay on the racing line like I see when spectating.

Darin and Shaun's Tech tips and the iRacing school videos has been very informative aswell as the drivers in servers spectating me giving me pointers, but if I brake/throttle/unwind steering when they say I can't stay on the racing line and I crash out. Thats why I want to make sure my G25 is doing what it's surposed to so I can concentrate on my braking, apexes ect without having to second guess what my wheel is going to do.

The reason I got a G25 was cause the plastic brake pedal snapped off my formula force GP(The red one) and the metal G25 seemed like the logical next step, the price and featuers compared with highend wheels sealed the deal too

[Koshi Eternium 0]

I'm still having trouble with my wheel.

I really need help cause I don't think my wheel is doing the force feedback correctly, I seem to have next to no grip even on slicks and it's effecting the way I have to take corners by slowing right down to the point I get hit by cars behind me even though I feel on the limit of my tires even with minimum steering inputs, I have almost no control over where the car goes.

>Edit< I only seem to be getting one ammount of force in the wheel so I can't tell if I'm turning in enough or not, also I can't tell much differnace between surfaces through the wheel, so I feel the same force when I transition from tarmac and dirt

I understand I have to practice and I've put in 100's and 100's of laps, but if the FFB is giving me the wrong info at the wheel all that pactice is pretty much meaningless cause I'm not learning what the car can acttuly do

Thanks for any more input

Koshi

[Johnny Carr 106]

My job has always been full on go 14+ hours a day thenlong periods of down time.When I don`t do any laps for awhile it always takes a lil time to get where I can keep it on the track and try and run half way competitive laps.It`s not easy and I can`t over emphasize how important practice is.

FFB has only really taken off the last 10 years with the G25 series and to a degree the red Momo and there are still many sim racers who either have it turned down do bare minimum or off all together so trust me FFB here is not your problem.

You need to not try and go fast.Sounds odd but that`s how you get fast.Entering a race is something you shouldn`t really do until you have the racing line memorized with all the braking marks,turn in points,apexes,throttle on points and track out.In practice work on the braking mark last and get the apex,throttle on and track out figure out for each corner then work on later braking.Once you get off the racing line it can feel like driving on ice.

Often u will go faster through the turn if you lift a lil earlier and coast to the apex instead of going in deep and jamming on the brakes.Just try and be aware whos around you.If someone is faster than you and not far behind try indicating what your doing on mic and lift early to let them by.Don`t make radical inputs with the wheel and pedals and dont shift too much.Relax and take your time.

I get run over all the time when trying to drive the 79 Lotus because I`ve not mastered all the basics in the slower cars.

[Koshi Eternium 0]

Thanks for your reply.

Turning down to minimum or turning off FFB makes no sence, thats exactly why I'm confused cause eveyone is telling me something differnt. I've tried profiler 101%-105% overall the rest 0% with center spring ticked and unticked, then in game (LFS) I use around 40% FFB and I've tried wheel turn compensation 0.0 and 1.0, then the parrelle steer in car setup and none of it is helping me feel the tire on the track.

I still think the FFB is the problem, cause I have no control over the car and I can't feel what the car is doing thought the wheel on a corner, my Logitech Formula Force GP (the red one) had a much better feel than my G25 as I could feel the tire on the road with it, so why can't I with the G25? I can't feel the transition between tarmac and dirt either.

I've done 100's of laps of alot of tracks and it feels like ice on the racing line and I have next to no grip to use. The only thing effecting my turning in and balence through a turn is the wheel when 5degs steering starts the tail sliding even running on warm slick tires with highish downforce. As I said before, what good is practice if I'm not getting any feeling through to wheel to learn from? same with spectating cause all the driver inputs don't refresh fast enough and looks like lag so making sence of it is difficult, thats why I'm asking about setup and feel of the G25 when driving so I can focus on practicing and not have to guess what to do cause I'm getting any infomation through the FFB.

[ocaxeman 26]

@ "Koshi Eternium "~Well man,I think Johnny & I have pretty much said the same thing,and I agree with him thoroughly,I also still think "FFB" Is not your problem,but you still think it is,so I think both johnny & I have said our piece,gave you our opinions and tried to help you out the best we could.

one thing that struck me a bit odd, was you mentioned you can not feel the transition between tarmac & Dirt..that simply is not right,because no matter what the settings,one should always feel a huge difference between the two..lol,also the "G25/G27" is a damn fine wheel,and I absolutely love em..BUT~it could be that it is not the wheel for you,perhaps you should try a "DFGT" or since you seem to love your old "FFGP" so much,and naturally feel much more comfortable with it,maybe purchasing another one would be your best bet,"Amazon.Com" has em for cheap too,and there is always a market for used 'G25's" [because of the switchable gated/sequential shifter],I am sure if it is in good condition,it will sell very quickly,and then you can buy a new "FFGP" without spending more money & maybe stop pulling your hair out~just an Idea bro,cheers and best of luck

[Koshi Eternium 0]

Thanks for your reply, but niether of you answered my question about how the wheel is ment to feel so I can aim for it when setting the game and profiler.

How can I not think the FFB is the problem when it's the thing telling me what the car is doing?

I turn in with minimum input of the wheel and there is no turn in bite or feeling of grip on the entrance of a corner and then I have no cues when I pass the apex to straighten the wheel and power on, hence why I want to make sure my G25 is giving me the right forces so I'm not having to guess where the car is going.

The only time I can use my wheel is drifting cause I can tell what the car is doing in the steering wheel so I know when to lift off the throttle and coutersteer more or give it some revs whing strigtening the front wheels to push the tail out more, all that I can feel fine, hell I can even feel the seem where two types of tarmac meet on the LFS autocross area, but none of that while gripping and I don't get it. All the profiler and game settings I've tried have just confused me and I'm at a loss what to do to. Though I found unticking the center spring fully removes any deadzone when going in a stright line.

Koshi

[Koshi Eternium 0]

If what you say is true and it's not the profiler settings for the FFB, then the only other thing stopping me from getting faster laptimes is the car setup, but as I said I've use the same exact setups but the car just won't do those laptimes for me and thats what lead me to want to make sure me FFB was behaving correctly.

If you have any tips on why when I use a setup that can do a mid 1:03 the best I can do is just under a mid 1:04 I'd like to hear it because I really enjoy racing but something seems to be slowing me down and I've no idea what it is or what to do about it.

[s4cral 3]

Hi Koshi

I know exactly how you feel about not quite being able to obtain maximum performance

out of a vehicle that others can magically squeeze a half a second or more during a lap.

The basics of high speed for flat corners includes identifying the following points on every track/corner

and figuring out the best pedal transition timing/rate and gear selection. Corners that have variations

in slope/banking can be exploited to develop more grip and requires you to identify anchor points.

Also prioritizing the corners in order of importance where the most time is to be gained helps.

1) brake point

- downshifting to the correct gear & rev matching

2) turn-in point

- pedal transition timing/rate from brake to accelerator

(yaw effect here rotates the vehicle during deceleration)

3) apex

- pedal transition timing/rate to max accelerator as you unwind the steering and upshifting to correct gear

(yaw effect again rotates the vehicle as you accelerate out of the corner)

4) exit point

The most difficult things to control during high performance cornering are

- pitch

(front to rear weight transfer when braking or accelerating)

- roll

(left to right weight transfer, effected by steering input and initial entry angle to corner)

- yaw

(whenever the vehicle is accelerating/decelerating and turning it will rotate about a central axis)

(this effect is increased by the angular momentum developed during the initial turn in rate)

(varies with the location centre of gravity and amount/distribution of mass over the tire contact patches)

( varies with the amount of grip developed during braking and the road surface)

- pedal transition timing

(usually trail braking to constant throttle as you apex a corner and exiting)

- gear selection

(downshifting to the correct gear and rev matching the engine are important)

- the next corner, how you approach a corner is effected by the previous one so think ahead.

It is important to not downshift too early and upset the balance of the vehicle or rely

on the engine for braking as you cannot control the amount of braking that is applied and you will

typically spinout.

Suspension setup, weight distribution, aerodynamics, gearing, tire selection are critical for max

performance. Also knowing the track well, best driving line etc.

Maintaining the optimum slip angle on the tires during cornering and not applying excessive steering input

are important. Drifting around a corner sideways is slow as you scrub off speed countering

oversteer with the steering wheel input. You have to learn to listen to the tire squeal and figure out what

is giving you the most grip. Once you get into the groove of cornering the vehicle mainly

with the brake and accelerator and steering wheel for balance at the same time then you

are on to something

The fastest drivers will be trail braking and using the yaw effect to their advantage.

I found some useful performance driving tips at http://www.drivingfast.net/

Heres some performance tips I wrote viewtopic.php?f=131&t=6925

Its advantageous to record and analyse some race telemetry for your favourite track and compare it to

someone who is performing better and figure out which corners you are slow on and

understand why so you can correct your driving technique.

Current FFB technology is not representative of what you should be feeling at the steering

wheel when race driving. You can only try and adjust the level to something you feel

comfortable with.

I still have heaps to learn about performance driving so if anyone can offer some constructive

feedback it is welcomed.

Of course practice practice and practice some more.

Cheers

[Johnny Carr 106]

He's not listening

[s4cral 3]

Tidgney has posted a couple of good videos on performance driving

[Tidgney 0]

I have to say s4cral has pretty much nailed the entire post. Any great driver will use multiple options available to get the most turn in/acceleration/Braking. As for equipment it really doesn't matter about equipment, ok the tiniest pieces of time will but we are talking a tenth max with wheel setup, or a bit more for different pieces of equipment, for the most part it really is all about just getting the finesse of driving, a good read through s4crals post gives great advice and guidance into getting that extra bit of lap time! I'd stop worrying about FFB!!

[Koshi Eternium 0]

Sorry I haven't posted in a while, have been putting in the pactice laps aswell as sorting out some new PC parts. I think you may be right about less is more with FFB though, I droped it to 20% in LFS and it feels pretty good, heard it can clip the FFB.

Thank you for your replys and I will watch those videos aswell was rewatching ISR tech tips and iRacing school videos.

I just can't figure out why my car seems to be slugish, It looks ok in replays, I'm braking as late as I can and I'm on the throttle as soon as I can into the apex, but I seem short on top end speed, drafting dosen't work for me, even if I'm right on the tail of the car in front and no matter how bang on I hit my shifts, the car infront will pull away, even if I'm using the exact same setup as the guy infront. I don't really know enough to make a setup from scratch cause I lost all the one I had, I've been making do with "Easy" race setups I've tried to tweak but it's still not that fast even though I'm going full tilt.

[Koshi Eternium 0]

I've been over the videos from ISR, iRacing and the GT ones as well as what I can find on YouTube a few times now and I'm still having trouble with something, no matter what car and track combo I run with track specific or a default car setup, I can't see any where on the track to gain anymore time and remain on the track. I have no idea what to do or where to start if the FFB isn't the problem cause something is wrong here, for example, I still have next to zero sense of grip and have to guess if the tires are ready for throttle and I'm half to full throttle just before the apex like the GT videos showed. Then at the other end braking, if I brake any later or harder I'll fly right past the apex cause I can't tell if I'm under steering or not.

 

I think I need to start from the ground up, which is what I was hoping to get from here when I was asking what forces and where I'm supposed to be feeling so when I'm working on car setups and not worrying about the wheel like I am doing now cause I still don't know if the forces are correct and I really need some help

[Paul GT73 1,398]

have you ever raced  or driven a real sports car on track, its not like driving to the store in a 2 tonne people carrier, the feedback in most games be it tarmac track or dirt track is much lighter and responsive, i feel your probably trying to compare yor g25 with the feel of a road car with big profile grippy tyres, its not going to feel like that, book a track dayn and see whats what

[Koshi Eternium 0]

I've only ever done a few laps in a shiftier kart, nothing in depth though.

 

My steering is far from light and responsive no matter what the tiers or surface are, the only time my G25 feels good is when drifting cause I can feel the tread of the front tires biting as I start to un-countersteer and use that with the throttle to push the tail round as well as countersteering more while easing off the throttle so I can gear down for example.

 

But gripping on the other hand I'm getting nothing in the steering wheel apart from it trying to center even though I unticked the center spring. ticked or unticked doesn't seem to make any difference like wise with car setup parameters I've been trying one at a time, things like toe and camber, but nothing I do seems to be helping my lap times cause I don't seem to have any of the grip I see everyone else has at the speeds they carry so I'm unable to reach the top speed out of the corner, cause I having to guess steering input and having to wait so long for the tires to be ready so I can power out from the apex. I just want to race but something is a miss if the car isn't handling the same way as I see it handling with exactly the same car setup. That is why I've been asking about the FFB feel instead of settings then I can work on the car setup without having worry about it cause I've tried dozens of profiler and game settings but I've no idea what feeling I'm meant to be aiming for with the game and profiler settings so I'm going round in circles not getting anywhere.

 

A track day isn't gunna help me as I won't ever afford one.

[Paul GT73 1,398]

may be worth a call to logitech to see if they can help, i know that once you dont feel like the wheel is not doing what it should then it just dosent seem fun, hope you manage to sort it

[Koshi Eternium 0]

I've had a replacement G25 from Logitech so I doubt it's the wheel itself as I had this problem with the old one, also my warranty ran out ages ago.

 

I have no idea if the wheel is doing something wrong or not so I'm unable to fine tune any car setups I have, as I mentioned before drift is no problem I have 100 times more control and can hit apexes better than the actual drifters cause I use a more rally inspired line so I'm pretty much "Initial-D"ing the inside barrier at the apex, like in the anime the RX7 FC grazes the railing on the inside.

 

But gripping the cars all seem sluggish even with the exact setup and lines ect as the guy who gave me it and I have no idea what to do about it. It's not that I'm not having fun, It's just I know the car can go at least a whole second, maybe two seconds faster, but something isn't allowing me to find that second or so and be competitive and I have no clue what is slowing me down, I mentioned drafting before, that a prime example of my problem, I can be less then 6 inches from the same car in front with the same setup as them, in the same gear, same revs, power on at the same time and they'll pull away reaching a higher top speed than me in the same distance before the next turn and I just don't get it. 

[Koshi Eternium 0]

I am still struggling with improving my lap times, no matter what I've tried with car setups.

 

So that leads me back to thinking something in the wheel setting (in and/or out of game) is causing my lack of feel when gripping and as a result be slow, but I haven't got a clue where to start to achieve a good feeling of grip in the wheel, light and responsive as mentioned above, not heavy and dull like I'm experiencing.

[Paul GT73 1,398]

have you seen the movie  'Groundhog day'  fantastic movie

[Paul GT73 1,398]

have you seen the movie 'Groundhog day' fantastic movie 

[Koshi Eternium 0]

Not exactly constructive there ptux73. 

 

Why is it so hard to answer to question? 

I just want to know how my wheel is meant to feel cause I do not think it is correct as I am unable to follow anything suggested in these forums, the LFS forums or the numerous videos I have watched dozens of times. I have absolutely no sense of grip even running racing slicks that have had time to warm to their optimum temps, as I said before the only time I have a sense of grip is when I am drifting when I can feel the direction front tires and when they are ready to "bite" the track so I am able to control my angle, but in grip no of this is there and I don't get it.  

[Paul GT73 1,398]

sorry koshi, i just have a fun sense of humour, please take no offence as none was meant, its just that if you read back through the posts i'm sure you'll agree that youv'e had above and beyond any help that we all could give, you have to understand that what your trying to explain what your explaining makes not any sense to anybody with any wheel, sorry but thats the cold hard truth. hope you figure things out