TCOne 2013: Archive (RACE, WTCC)

[Jonatan Åcerclinth 400]

The proplem here, in my opinion as it was me who looked for cuts and reported it, 

 

Was that a penalty would have been delivered to all top drivers in D1 in both drivers (except Keithly) for the chicane as everyone was outside of the curbs several times and never looked like trying to prevent it from happening. 

 

I realized during R1 myself that I was cutting by running wide here and there but I also tried to stop it from happening (didn't do so in time) which awarded me a penalty. For R2 I thought about it for a lap and then I forgot about it due to the racing that was occuring, which was awesome  

 

What I want to say is that cuts in my opinion is the same line every lap at the same corner, at this track the chicane in particular and it was common to run wide at T4 (I did so myself) without letting up the throttle or anything after doing so.

 

I find the penalties perfectly fine but I could agree that some were harsher than others, but when I looked at the cuts from D1, R1, I saw 20+ obvious cuts from 3 of the top 10 drivers..... which 12-14 of them were at the chicane and the rest at T4 and the 3rd to last turn

[Simon Kilov 42]

Happy new year!!!

 

i agree with villar and i never intended to gain time with any "cutting" i did. i hope you will re-consider the penalties....

 

Simon

 

[Chris Shepherd 53]

I agree with Villar also.

 

I mean the amount of times, correct me if im wrong, that penalties were placed, for when wheels violated the track, seemed to be for every single instance. Where what might have been the case in some instances, and im sure im right here, is that alot of these track violations actually cost the driver time, rather than gaining time, albeit maybe just .1 or .2 but to then receive a penalty for these track violations seems wrong.

[Ryan Callan 2,576]

The amount of track boundary violations is taken into account. The rules are very clear, the limits are very clear, and it is your responsibility as drivers to drive within those limits. Not slightly outside them 20, 30 times in one race. If you drive out of the limits occasionally, then really we have no problem, but when it becomes excessive, that's when we will penalise you. Just because 'everyone is doing it' does not mean you all get away with it.

 

If everyone started stealing from your house then it's fine, because everyone's doing it?

 

Hamilton 2012 - real V8 Supercars. Drivers were allowed 6 cuts of a very fast chicane in a 40-50 lap race. Every 6 cuts, they were given a drive through penalty, and the pit limit in this category is 40kph. Now tell me we are too harsh.

[Jonatan Åcerclinth 400]

Hamilton 2012 - real V8 Supercars. Drivers were allowed 6 cuts of a very fast chicane in a 40-50 lap race. Every 6 cuts, they were given a drive through penalty, and the pit limit in this category is 40kph. Now tell me we are too harsh.

Or Prémat who cut that chicane at least 12 times if I remember correctly

 

I agree perfectly with the penalties, although I was frustrated that I couldn't stay within the track limits even when trying but that is my own fault, time to go back to the writingboard and get prepared to Birmingham, at least it is a lot harder to cut at that track

[Chris Shepherd 53]

Compare it to real life, if you shoot another guy by mistake, while you really were shooting for a bear....

 

If everyone started stealing from your house then it's fine, because everyone's doing it?

 

Did you two go to the same school ? Hehehe ^^

[Guest Toby Davis]

As Ryan says, we allow for some leeway - we aren't penalising you if you step out of line a handful of times. But it's a sprint race, and exceeding the already generous track boundary limits (we allow you to use all of the kerbing as well, remember, unlike other places which penalise you for being outside the white lines) in double figure amounts is just not on. Some penalties were awarded for drivers being outside of the track on average more than twice a lap - that's just not on.

[Reggie Blain 6]

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[Francisco Villar 2]

I don't intend to say that going off track is legal, or that it should never be penalised. I say that most of the times the people that went off track in Hungaroring did not gain anything from that. There were even cases that time was lost. This is why I find the penalties are overdone. Speaking for myself, I lost 19 points solely because of that, which does not seem fair, or at least does not mirror the true results on track.

[Ivan Navarro 282]

I called them "Track Boundary Violations" rather than "Cutting" because I didn't want to make 600 judgement calls as to which times each excursion was gaining or losing time. That said, where there was fighting, contact, going out to avoid contact, or a clear mistake (like the car getting unsettled on a curb) I didn't count it.

You can gain time running wide at several corners on this track. A question was posted and answered regarding the chicane. Numerous screenshots were posted showing the limits. Everyone should have been aware of the limits. (Especially after the Virtual Minis race with all of its excessive cutting and DQ's.)

Not counting a couple of run-wides would not have changed the overall outcome on the penalties. I also don't believe any of those guys up front lack the car control needed to to keep it within the designated boundaries. Sorry, but most of you guys are pros at this game and I just won't buy that argument.

I really didn't enjoy watching the race 32 times, believe me, but it was all Jack's fault! I'll explain.

What I mean by that is when there is a strong competitor who is well within the boundaries throughout the quali and race, it is unfair to him if those competing against him are allowed to exceed those same limits without being held accountable.

Where is Jack's incentive to keep within the track boundaries when he can be even quicker by not? Even without the strength of character to do the right thing even when no one is watching or when it's difficult, he can still know that the stewards ARE watching and will hold others accountable.

So, if you want to think of me as a policeman, that's fine, just don't be a criminal!

I hope things will be different at Birmingham. IMO it's a great track, but you can cut to gain time here too. I do not want to count all those track boundary penalties again but I am willing to do it as necessary, so please help me out at the next one.

[Reggie Blain 6]

i am going on for some testing if any 1 is goin on

[Francisco Villar 2]

When you speak about "everyone having the car control to keep within the designated boundaries", you really believe that we are all silly enough to "go off track" and expect that no one notices?!!!  Let me tell you, this is not about the "strenght of caracter" that you mention or anything else. When I was going off track, I knew I had just done it, and I knew that you guys were watching (I was actually leading the race!). This said, I was just hoping that you understood between going off track "on purpose with the intent of gaining", or going off track because in that situaton you just couldn't help it.

I obviously accept that someone that is taking advantage should be penalized, but as I said already, I do not believe that this was the case with most people here in Hungaroring. If those track boundaries were walls, I would have hit the Wall the same amount of times for sure, because those tiny mistakes happen! They are part of driving on the limits.

 

Also, as I told Ryan, when I finished the race I was in total peace of mind because I really thought I had driver a fair race, and that I had nothing to worry about. You can even check that I once cutted hugely the chicance, and what did I do? I slowed down straight away, because I thought I had gained an advantage...  I thought I was within the spirits of the rules, but according to you I wasn't and I have enough car control to keep it on track. Sorry to dissapoint you

 

 

Not counting a couple of run-wides would not have changed the overall outcome on the penalties. I also don't believe any of those guys up front lack the car control needed to to keep it within the designated boundaries. Sorry, but most of you guys are pros at this game and I just won't buy that argument.

Where is Jack's incentive to keep within the track boundaries when he can be even quicker by not? Even without the strength of character to do the right thing even when no one is watching or when it's difficult, he can still know that the stewards ARE watching and will hold others accountable.

 

[Erik Tveit 407]

When you speak about "everyone having the car control to keep within the designated boundaries", you really believe that we are all silly enough to "go off track" and expect that no one notices?!!!  Let me tell you, this is not about the "strenght of caracter" that you mention or anything else. When I was going off track, I knew I had just done it, and I knew that you guys were watching (I was actually leading the race!). This said, I was just hoping that you understood between going off track "on purpose with the intent of gaining", or going off track because in that situaton you just couldn't help it.

I obviously accept that someone that is taking advantage should be penalized, but as I said already, I do not believe that this was the case with most people here in Hungaroring. If those track boundaries were walls, I would have hit the Wall the same amount of times for sure, because those tiny mistakes happen! They are part of driving on the limits.

 

Also, as I told Ryan, when I finished the race I was in total peace of mind because I really thought I had driver a fair race, and that I had nothing to worry about. You can even check that I once cutted hugely the chicance, and what did I do? I slowed down straight away, because I thought I had gained an advantage...  I thought I was within the spirits of the rules, but according to you I wasn't and I have enough car control to keep it on track. Sorry to dissapoint you

 

You know that you wouldn't have got this if you kept it within the rules, right? 

[Ivan Navarro 282]

I do feel bad how it turned out Francisco and I didn't mean to imply that you don't have character.  I respect you guys and admire your sim-racing skills.  I was rooting for you guys to not go out each and every lap, I really was! (Unfortunately for you guys, I am patient and have an eagle eye! )

 

It is too difficult for me to apply such understanding and then argue the "intent" of the driver afterwards when the appeals start with, "but so-and-so did the same thing and you didn't penalize him.". Therefore, I only looked at situations where the car was in basically in control and looked at the cars position on the track relative to the defined boundaries.  Where you went out otherwise, was not counted.

 

The simple fact is that those lines chosen to be taken -and they were the same lines taken on multiple laps- were just not within the track's legal boundaries.  When you are pushing the limits that hard, you run the risk.

 

I know I certainly went out more than I thought I did, and as you said, I knew it at the time and was saying to myself, "S**t!, go easier next time, that's twice in three laps I ran wide there!"

 

If everyone had 10-15 slight "offs" perhaps that would have been an acceptable standard.  Instead, there was a championship contender that was near perfect and made it impossible to ignore what was going on.  He was literally one of the only drivers racing on the Hungaroring circuit that day.

 

That is all for me, I'm off to join Reggie  

[Gary Lennon 115]

This is the kind of stewarding we all want i thought?, Ivan has gone over and above the call of duty investing god knows how many of his holiday period hours on such a thankless task, so many cry out for "Realism!!!", well this is a step towards that, each zone on that track if this was a real life race would have had real people there watching you all at every turn along the way and instantly reported your track infringements and indeed any other shenanigans by radio to the clerk of the course, then you would get a black and white warning flag and probably your team on the phone saying to dial back the enthusiasm a notch or two please, and then ultimately a nice slow cruise down pit lane if you proceed to re profile the track to your liking....

 

My voice of support and some admiration goes to Ivan here, thank you sir!.

[Ray Lilley 140]

Yes, the laws on driving can be quite aggressive.

I was prosecuted for running over my neighbour. I explained that he walked in front of my oncoming car and did not look left & right. Apparently, he didin't have to in his own front garden??

So, yeah, ..it's best to know the rules!

[Diogo Lopes 9]

I think who are both correct.
firstly the rules are to fulfill
but rules must be fair.
I also missed the victory and not felt I had done differently races.

I think the problem is the track, the tracks are not clear that cuts should not be part of the calendar.

(excuse the English, I use translator)

[William Levesque 157]

I think the problem is the track, the tracks are not clear that cuts should not be part of the calendar.

It's like saying guns kill people....

[Diogo Lopes 9]

exactly!!

[William Levesque 157]

Guns don't kill people, people do.

 

Like tracks aren't problematic (Unless there are issues with mapping), drivers are

[Tomasz Matuszewski 47]

I think the problem is the track, the tracks are not clear that cuts should not be part of the calendar.

 

You are right - this track may not be clear. And that's why Ivan posted a bunch of screenshots of what is allowed and what is not. And he did it long time before the race so all of the drivers were able to check them and eventually correct their lines.

[Diogo Lopes 9]

exactly!!

 

William Levesque you were in the race?

[Diogo Lopes 9]

You are right - this track may not be clear. And that's why Ivan posted a bunch of screenshots of what is allowed and what is not. And he did it long time before the race so all of the drivers were able to check them and eventually correct their lines.

 

but I did not say that the rules were not clear.

I do not criticize Ivan Navarro.

[Ryan Callan 2,576]

This discussion has been pretty civil so far guys, let's keep it that way. I'm sure that everyone now knows where they stand, and Birmingham is little over a week away, so get your practice on

[William Levesque 157]

William Levesque you were in the race?

No you're right, I wasn't. Although I have been in many races on which the track has been controversial regarding cutting. I've been in trouble once for it, one too many which possibly cost me a championship, or a proper run for it anyway.

 

I know that some people are more inclined to pushing the boundaries further than allowed, especially in a FWD car that makes it much more easy to cut, as sometimes they don't quite stick like you would want them to, leading to taking "shortcuts" or running too wide.

 

You just have to move on, try to improve on that point where in the future you won't even think about cuts, you'll adjust to the track and the happenings around you instinctively. and I know you are good enough to do so.

 

Yeah it sucks you lost a win, but then it does make you want to try harder next time around does it ?