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Accelid vs Vector GT1 MP vs ProSimu T1000 3DOF vs

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What is the best one? I may be crazy enough to finally buy a motion sim. Prices are becoming more affordable. I would like one of those that move the entire thing (wheel and pedals too, like the 3 first ones), the last one is only a seat mover.

The problem is, im paranoid the complete movers aren't as sharp and if I notice minimal lag its game over. But only a seat mover doesn't feel comfortable..

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I own the Next Level motion V3, it feels great to me. If you mean by comfort you mean that the pedals and wheel remain stationary which may not feel right. Well you don't actually notice this unless the you dial up the movement to it's highest settings, which is way too much for sim racing. As a baseline half the default settings for lateral/forward-back motion feels right to me. I think the ProSimu platform is good value, that would have been first choice had I not already had full rig. The Next Level platform size makes it so versatile and allowed me to retrofit onto my existing cockpit.

The Accelid and Vector are limited with no provision other than the shifters on the wheelbase. You're right about sharpness they'll miss out in fidelity, you can see this by comparing the videos they move very smoothly compared to the NL and PS.

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1 hour ago, Jeremy.Ford said:

I own the Next Level motion V3, it feels great to me. If you mean by comfort you mean that the pedals and wheel remain stationary which may not feel right. Well you don't actually notice this unless the you dial up the movement to it's highest settings, which is way too much for sim racing. As a baseline half the default settings for lateral/forward-back motion feels right to me. I think the ProSimu platform is good value, that would have been first choice had I not already had full rig. The Next Level platform size makes it so versatile and allowed me to retrofit onto my existing cockpit.

The Accelid and Vector are limited with no provision other than the shifters on the wheelbase. You're right about sharpness they'll miss out in fidelity, you can see this by comparing the videos they move very smoothly compared to the NL and PS.

But the PS T1000 also moves the entire thing (wheels + pedals too), will it be as sharp as NL with no lag?

 

I just don't believe in "seat movers only", I would need some movent on the entire thing. Of course unless you got like $100,000, chances are your "total mover" is going to have some lag with ruins the entire experience. But the PS T1000 looks pretty sharp on the video since it isn't using massive amount of range of motion like the other ones. It may be the perfect solution?

What I find weird is that it seems to be elevated from the front side all the time, like the seat is inclined all the time. What effect is it trying to achieve doing that?

 

Also the PS T1000 comes in DOF3, DOF4 and DOF6. What are the differences in practice? is it worth investing in 4 or 6 or 3 is enough?

 

About display:

I dont own VR yet but plan to buy one. Not sure if Oculus or Vibe. What I know is I will not bother to invest on triples.

I heard VR sucks resolution wise tho, even tho the immersiveness is amazing. I was considering waiting 2 to 4 years and see if we get higher res VR by then.. and probably sim motions will be even cheaper.

 

 

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2 hours ago, dukenukem said:

But the PS T1000 also moves the entire thing (wheels + pedals too), will it be as sharp as NL with no lag?

 

I just don't believe in "seat movers only", I would need some movent on the entire thing. Of course unless you got like $100,000, chances are your "total mover" is going to have some lag with ruins the entire experience. But the PS T1000 looks pretty sharp on the video since it isn't using massive amount of range of motion like the other ones. It may be the perfect solution?

What I find weird is that it seems to be elevated from the front side all the time, like the seat is inclined all the time. What effect is it trying to achieve doing that?

 

Also the PS T1000 comes in DOF3, DOF4 and DOF6. What are the differences in practice? is it worth investing in 4 or 6 or 3 is enough?

 

About display:

I dont own VR yet but plan to buy one. Not sure if Oculus or Vibe. What I know is I will not bother to invest on triples.

I heard VR sucks resolution wise tho, even tho the immersiveness is amazing. I was considering waiting 2 to 4 years and see if we get higher res VR by then.. and probably sim motions will be even cheaper.

 

 

I can only tell you of my use with the Next Level Motion. I haven't tried any other motion platform so I can't compare this to any other. I picked this as it was fit for my purpose, so I consider it a small compromise but I'm not disappointed.

If you look at the ProSimU, you can see it distributes the weight differently. In fact just look at the video review you can see how quickly the motion is reacting, there won't be any lag you'll notice. This is the best design for full motion of the chassis for sim racing imo. I'd consider the Accelid and Vector perfect for flight sims.

Maybe you're impressed with the huge movement some of these are displaying. It's displayed at it's exaggerated full extent for show, you'll end up driving worse laps for it with this much movement, it become disorienting, you'll spend more time keeping stable within the seat than concentrating on the track. It's a balance, motion doesn't makes you drive better, but it can make you drive worse. Again look at the videos of the people moving in the seat as their being jostled around in the Next Level and ProSimU. If feels a lot more alive experiencing this than watching a video.

'Also the PS T1000 comes in DOF3, DOF4 and DOF6. What are the differences in practice? is it worth investing in 4 or 6 or 3 is enough?'
- I think it's really obvious how the different systems move by looking at the designs. How much is your budget?

As for VR, you'll only know if you try it whether you can get past the resolution limitation. Possible motion sickness is also a factor. VR is like stepping through the screen and being there, many people swear by racing in VR because of this. The resolution of the Vive and Oculus is optimal for the graphics cards available today. Maybe 4-5 games actually support Crossfire/SLI in VR, so you're stuck with a single GPU driving a high resolution at 90FPS. GPU's still need to catch up to allow VR at any higher resolution.

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5 hours ago, Jeremy.Ford said:

I can only tell you of my use with the Next Level Motion. I haven't tried any other motion platform so I can't compare this to any other. I picked this as it was fit for my purpose, so I consider it a small compromise but I'm not disappointed.

If you look at the ProSimU, you can see it distributes the weight differently. In fact just look at the video review you can see how quickly the motion is reacting, there won't be any lag you'll notice. This is the best design for full motion of the chassis for sim racing imo. I'd consider the Accelid and Vector perfect for flight sims.

Maybe you're impressed with the huge movement some of these are displaying. It's displayed at it's exaggerated full extent for show, you'll end up driving worse laps for it with this much movement, it become disorienting, you'll spend more time keeping stable within the seat than concentrating on the track. It's a balance, motion doesn't makes you drive better, but it can make you drive worse. Again look at the videos of the people moving in the seat as their being jostled around in the Next Level and ProSimU. If feels a lot more alive experiencing this than watching a video.

'Also the PS T1000 comes in DOF3, DOF4 and DOF6. What are the differences in practice? is it worth investing in 4 or 6 or 3 is enough?'
- I think it's really obvious how the different systems move by looking at the designs. How much is your budget?

As for VR, you'll only know if you try it whether you can get past the resolution limitation. Possible motion sickness is also a factor. VR is like stepping through the screen and being there, many people swear by racing in VR because of this. The resolution of the Vive and Oculus is optimal for the graphics cards available today. Maybe 4-5 games actually support Crossfire/SLI in VR, so you're stuck with a single GPU driving a high resolution at 90FPS. GPU's still need to catch up to allow VR at any higher resolution.

I have seen these videos

 

DOF2:

 

 

DOF3:

 

 

DOF4:

 

 

 

DOF5:

 

 

I can't reallt the difference, but the DOF3 looks good enough to me. It looks pretty sharp and aggressive, but without the ridiculous range of motions of the other ones (which cause delay). But I dont really know how it actually feels so im asking in case someone has tried them. What im looking for is to have fun basically, im not trying to break lap records, I just want to make the experience more realistic, so the motion sim must be sharp, explosive, and i should be tired after an hour, it should give me a nice neck workout like a real racing car.

 

But by looking at those videos I can't really tell if going higher than DOF3 is really worth it. If it is a game changer then I would invest a bit more and get  DOF4.. or even DOF5.

Of course, it also depends on how realiable this stuff is. How often it can break? I don't want to be going bankrupt buying repair parts. I don't plan to over use it, just use it for 1 hour, have some fun making some laps and once I feel like I had a good workout then that's it. Probably not daily use because I will not have the time.

http://www.prosimu-shop.com/fr/

They have other motion sims but I guess I will not bother checking those out since the T1000 seems like the best deal in terms of sharpness/power/price/not taking a ton of space and fitting in a regular room. My only complain would be that the actuators are a bit noisy so I guess I will have to resort to isolating headphones to forget im being moved by some actuators going up and down and not a car.

About trying VR before buying... unfortunately I dont know anyone to test it out.

 

What's better, Vive or Oculus? Im going to be using it for racing only, I don't think i'll bother with other games.

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I agree the DOF3 version looks really good, great price considering it has traction loss. I wouldn't say using motion really tires you out, it's definitely more active on your body so it adds effort but no real g-forces going on. Motion is another layer of force feedback from the game and does add a lot to the experience. Dirt Rally or running the Nordschleife in any title is a blast.

I have no idea how robust actuators are in general, I guess it depends on how hard they're worked. I've never seen anything online suggesting they're fragile applied to sim racing.

If it's just sim racing the Oculus is the best choice, traditionally it usually gets supported first by developers. It's cheaper too as the hand controllers are sold separately. One warning, if you're prone to motion sickness it may not be for you.

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On 7/6/2017 at 11:14 PM, Jeremy.Ford said:

I agree the DOF3 version looks really good, great price considering it has traction loss. I wouldn't say using motion really tires you out, it's definitely more active on your body so it adds effort but no real g-forces going on. Motion is another layer of force feedback from the game and does add a lot to the experience. Dirt Rally or running the Nordschleife in any title is a blast.

I have no idea how robust actuators are in general, I guess it depends on how hard they're worked. I've never seen anything online suggesting they're fragile applied to sim racing.

If it's just sim racing the Oculus is the best choice, traditionally it usually gets supported first by developers. It's cheaper too as the hand controllers are sold separately. One warning, if you're prone to motion sickness it may not be for you.

But with enough inclination, you would feel gravity pulling you to the opposite side you are turning too, so maybe if you tweak the settings you can achieve something that works out the neck a bit.

In any case, what are the differeneces from DOF 3, 4 and 5 in practice?

 

I know that with DOF3, you feel tracktion loss, while DOF2 does not have that.

What about 4 and 5? like what does it add specifically.

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12 minutes ago, dukenukem said:

But with enough inclination, you would feel gravity pulling you to the opposite side you are turning too, so maybe if you tweak the settings you can achieve something that works out the neck a bit.

In any case, what are the differeneces from DOF 3, 4 and 5 in practice?

 

I know that with DOF3, you feel tracktion loss, while DOF2 does not have that.

What about 4 and 5? like what does it add specifically.

DOF is acronym for degrees of freedom. It's refers to the flexibility of movement on the axis. But that's not entirely accurate for these they don't name them as DOF. The models refer to the number of actuators, which still does increase the DOF. '2 motion' is 2 actuators, so obviously 5 motion is 5 actuators.

This is a breakdown to their models as follows.

2 motion - pitch (forward/back), roll (left/right)
3 motion - pitch, roll, yaw (traction loss swing)
4 motion - pitch, roll, elevation (the four actuators raise/lower the platform)
5 motion - pitch, roll , yaw, elevation

That should all make sense.

PS. I think ProSimU should hire me for all my work writing this. ;-)

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3 hours ago, Beef36 said:

I was originally looking at seat shakers and ended up with a 4 actuator D-Box 4250i motion system.  I found both SimXperience seat shakers and the D-Box to be really fantastic.  Both were very immersive, fun, lag wasn't an issue and I would have been happy with the motion of either.

However while neither of above are in your short list you also need to consider your rig.  For example the Next Level Motion Platform V3 seat would have me sitting too high for my rig like a bus driver and that knocked it off my list.

 

 

 

But similar to above the biggest learning I found was to be wary of marketing showing off large motion movements.

I originally wanted that as I thought more motion = more realism, plus it looked cool.  However unless you buy a commercial grade simulator, I eventually realised that excessive motion is great for Disneyworld entertainment rides and maybe rollercoaster or flight simulation, but it is counter-productive for car racing simulator. 

You

just need enough motion to trick your brain.  It both feels more realistic and reduces lag.

 

Note: I’m not trying to be a D-Box advocate but if you are looking for durability and re-sale value, the D-Box 4250i uses the same motor as the Leo Bodnar SimSteering system.  They are commercial grade quality, not consumer grade.

 

D-Box is primarily used for commercial and home cinema.  If you check out those forums you may find some second-hand units.

Good luck and let us know what you end up purchasing.

 

 

 

Cheers

 

I have no rig, all I have is a G27.

 

http://shop.demracingsimulators.com/en/d-box-/18-d-box-4250i-professional-motion-system.html

 

This alone is 11k €... out of my budget if the Prosim is good enough. How does it compare to the dbox?

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13 hours ago, Jeremy.Ford said:

DOF is acronym for degrees of freedom. It's refers to the flexibility of movement on the axis. But that's not entirely accurate for these they don't name them as DOF. The models refer to the number of actuators, which still does increase the DOF. '2 motion' is 2 actuators, so obviously 5 motion is 5 actuators.

This is a breakdown to their models as follows.

2 motion - pitch (forward/back), roll (left/right)
3 motion - pitch, roll, yaw (traction loss swing)
4 motion - pitch, roll, elevation (the four actuators raise/lower the platform)
5 motion - pitch, roll , yaw, elevation

That should all make sense.

PS. I think ProSimU should hire me for all my work writing this. ;-)

I see. How is elevation percieved? specially in VR.. doesnt it cause motions sickness?

 

The immersiveness incrementation is worth the extra money? like, going throught the inclined S curves in spa with DOF4 would be noticeable due you feeling the inclination?

 

What about yaw?

 

How do those translate in practice, in  a racing game? (specially while wearing oculus)

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4 hours ago, dukenukem said:

I see. How is elevation percieved? specially in VR.. doesnt it cause motions sickness?

 

The immersiveness incrementation is worth the extra money? like, going throught the inclined S curves in spa with DOF4 would be noticeable due you feeling the inclination?

 

What about yaw?

 

How do those translate in practice, in  a racing game? (specially while wearing oculus)

I'm not sure how much you will notice the elevation at all the travel is limited. As the 4 actuators are spreading the load it will be an advantage for overall speed of the actuators and provide better detail to the overall feel of the motion. 4 is better than 2 for sure, but the advantage vs. cost is not something you can answer without trying for yourself.

You won't get motion sickness from a motion platform, but you can get motion sickness from VR.

What about yaw? It's the sensation of the car going around a corner or skidding, it's not essential but neither is motion at all in sim racing. It's realistic to a point, there's no g-force at play.

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8 hours ago, Beef36 said:

I was originally looking at seat shakers and ended up with a 4 actuator D-Box 4250i motion system.  I found both SimXperience seat shakers and the D-Box to be really fantastic.  Both were very immersive, fun, lag wasn't an issue and I would have been happy with the motion of either.

However while neither of above are in your short list you also need to consider your rig.  For example the Next Level Motion Platform V3 seat would have me sitting too high for my rig like a bus driver and that knocked it off my list.

 

 

 

But similar to above the biggest learning I found was to be wary of marketing showing off large motion movements.

I originally wanted that as I thought more motion = more realism, plus it looked cool.  However unless you buy a commercial grade simulator, I eventually realised that excessive motion is great for Disneyworld entertainment rides and maybe rollercoaster or flight simulation, but it is counter-productive for car racing simulator. 

You

just need enough motion to trick your brain.  It both feels more realistic and reduces lag.

 

Note: I’m not trying to be a D-Box advocate but if you are looking for durability and re-sale value, the D-Box 4250i uses the same motor as the Leo Bodnar SimSteering system.  They are commercial grade quality, not consumer grade.

 

D-Box is primarily used for commercial and home cinema.  If you check out those forums you may find some second-hand units.

Good luck and let us know what you end up purchasing.

 

 

 

Cheers

 

You're dead right about the Next Level Motion seat height. Mines mounted on 80/20 so I've been able to raise the pedals and wheel to compensate. I wouldn't use the motion platform on the Next Level cockpit, I owned the full Next Level cockpit before and it's awful.

 

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Well it seems DOF3 is the best price/product. DOF2 is too limited imo. The lack of tracktion loss feeling sounds pretty huge.

Now the question is how much elevation or elevation+yaw would add to the experience in practice to justify spending extra 2000 or 3000€ on this thing... impossible to say unless I try but of course, there's no way I can try them so..

DOF2: 1990€

DOF3: 2990€

DOF4: 4990€

DOF5: 5990€

The only reviews I can find are from people that own the DOF2 or DOF3 ones.

Another thing I didn't factor in... would the electricity bill be noticeable on DOF4 / DOF5 compared to DOF3? since there's more actuators you are consuming more, but not sure to what extent.

Also: why are they not mounting a screen on the thing? looks like it has a platform to put a screen. If you are not going to use VR, seems like having the screen aligned in front of you all the time would be better than having it fixed? Assuming that the platform is of good quality and the screen wouldn't be wobbling around...

 

 

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2 hours ago, dukenukem said:

Well it seems DOF3 is the best price/product. DOF2 is too limited imo. The lack of tracktion loss feeling sounds pretty huge.

Now the question is how much elevation or elevation+yaw would add to the experience in practice to justify spending extra 2000 or 3000€ on this thing... impossible to say unless I try but of course, there's no way I can try them so..

DOF2: 1990€

DOF3: 2990€

DOF4: 4990€

DOF5: 5990€

The only reviews I can find are from people that own the DOF2 or DOF3 ones.

Another thing I didn't factor in... would the electricity bill be noticeable on DOF4 / DOF5 compared to DOF3? since there's more actuators you are consuming more, but not sure to what extent.

Also: why are they not mounting a screen on the thing? looks like it has a platform to put a screen. If you are not going to use VR, seems like having the screen aligned in front of you all the time would be better than having it fixed? Assuming that the platform is of good quality and the screen wouldn't be wobbling around...

 

 

Electricity usage will increase with more actuators that's expected. Email ProSimU for that answer, I have no idea what a single actuator draws. If you're worried about running costs, why are you looking to spend 3000 euros in the first place?

Is traction loss (yaw) essential on top of your basic 2DOF, probably not. 2DOF is the baseline and perfectly good. 1000 euros for traction loss, that's up to you.

Ignore elevation, it's a byproduct of 4 actuators, it's a tiny factor that won't be noticed. The main benefit of 4 is spreading the load it puts less stress so increases reliability, I would also expect a degree of improved force feedback. So 4 is still better, but 2 achieves the same main purpose and better value.

Adding a fragile monitor or TV mounted by a relatively small VESA mount not designed to be violently shook in different directions adds risk maybe, that's a lot of vibration and forces passed to the screen? Quite honestly I think you have a skewed impression of motion. A monitor not attached is just fine. The motion isn't moving across great distances from an untethered monitor.

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I believe the difference from 2 to 3 actuators is enough to pay the price.

Not sure 4 or 5 are worth the extra money. I will have to look for people that actually sat on those. I wish I lived in france, they have a stand where you can test them out. They got a juicy 3 screen setup, DK2 and 2 4DOF and 1 5DOF:

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/motion-simulator-t1000-2-3-4-5-motion-from-1890€.331017/#post-11253363

Ideally they should have 1 of each tho, I would need to test 3DOF.

I like to factor in everything, so I will email them.

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Jeremy's post on DoF seems to be overlooked and needs more attention.  The number of actuators does not equal DoF.  I would avoid any company/system that incorrectly uses DoF in their naming, if they are simply trying to convey the number of actuators they are using.  Its either false advertising or ignorance, either is a disqualification in my book.

For simplicity, you can (sort of) break down motion into a few principles:  seat-mover style, DBOX style, and other.

Most people will swear by whatever they have, so it is best if you can try out some systems yourself.  I know a few 'sim labs' are cropping up in places (Crimson in CT comes to mind) that can help with this.  Conventions are not the best, as they usually have the motion dialed way too high for crowd wow factor.  At the time I was shopping, I tried a 4 actuator DBOX and a seat-mover and greatly preferred the seat-mover.  I wrote a lengthy explanation as to why in my build thread found in my sig.

Some of the newer, less expensive setups, seem to be getting by with using leverage in new/different ways.  I think this helps get movement, without needing as much muscle (i.e. cost), but I'd imagine the drawback might be response time.  I have no first hand experience on that, just guessing.

SimCraft/DIYsim has a handful of interesting motion rigs coming out soon that can essentially take your existing rig and make it a motion rig.  There are a number that use motion in different/unique ways from anything else I've seen on the market.  I already have a motion rig I'm happy with, but if I didn't I would keep an eye on what those guys are doing.

 

 

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On 6/26/2017 at 1:29 PM, switchface said:

Jeremy's post on DoF seems to be overlooked and needs more attention.  The number of actuators does not equal DoF.  I would avoid any company/system that incorrectly uses DoF in their naming, if they are simply trying to convey the number of actuators they are using.  Its either false advertising or ignorance, either is a disqualification in my book.

For simplicity, you can (sort of) break down motion into a few principles:  seat-mover style, DBOX style, and other.

 

 

 

This could be true, especially for D-Box type solutions, say with 4 actuators, it will contribute roll, pitch, z-axis 3DoF only I think (no Yaw). If one wants Yaw motion (rear traction loss), you need an extra actuator to move whole frame that will be more expensive (total 5 actuators). 4 actuators D-Box type of solution is more expensive than others is because you need more powerful 4 actuator to move whole seat up in order achieve z-direction motion.

But for traditional seat mover solution, using 3 Actuators, we do have 3DoF: roll, pitch, and yaw. Such solution is cheap and effective:

 

 

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