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Forza Motorsports 3 Review Up Now !

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Perhaps when Logitech is interested in creating an entirely new wheel they will look at making one that is both XID and HID compatible. However, given sales figures of wheels on the 360, I wouldn't hold my breath. The unfortunate thing is that, as long as wheels are all HID, PC sims will never move to XID either. Why create all new FFB programming for your game when no one can use it because they're all using HID wheels? So we're stuck with the old technology.

So does that mean the Fanatec is XID and HID Since it can do both? Or asked another way. How then does the Fanatec wheel support the 360/ps3 and PC?

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The issue is actually that Logitech "refuses" to completely re-engineer its wheels for functionality on the 360. If I were them I probably wouldn't bother either. Sales of the wheels on the 360 have been utterly dismal -- every single entry has been discontinued (save the new Fanatec of course), but they can all still be found on shelves with little problem as they simply turn that slowly.

The "issue" is that the 360 uses a completely different protocol for its FFB. It uses the newer, superior, XID protocol rather than the ancient, but universal with everything, HID protocol. MS was, originally quite some time ago, keeping this to its chest but as since opened this up for public consumption quite some time ago. However the engineering changes that are required essentially require an all-new wheel. It's not simply a different way of "talking" to the wheel -- instead, with XID, the wheel is fed a variety of game information and it decides how it should react given input from the player. Under HID, the game simply tells the wheel "act like you're in dirt" and it runs through its pre-programmed routine on what that means. Logitech was given the opportunity to do make its wheel compatible with the advent of the G27, however it was only looking to upgrade the G25 hardware, not create an all-new wheel, which is essentially what would be required since the G25 was never developed with XID in mind.

Perhaps when Logitech is interested in creating an entirely new wheel they will look at making one that is both XID and HID compatible. However, given sales figures of wheels on the 360, I wouldn't hold my breath. The unfortunate thing is that, as long as wheels are all HID, PC sims will never move to XID either. Why create all new FFB programming for your game when no one can use it because they're all using HID wheels? So we're stuck with the old technology.

Perhaps you are right, but this is what Logitech has to say about it:

http://forums.logitech.com/t5/Steering- ... /m-p/82197

Logitech seems pretty adamant about it.

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So does that mean the Fanatec is XID and HID Since it can do both? Or asked another way. How then does the Fanatec wheel support the 360/ps3 and PC?

I'd like to take it apart myself (but I don't see myself doing it to mine) and see. It'd be interesting to see if Thomas found a means of effectively "emulating" HID with an XID wheel, but I doubt it. Even MS couldn't make it work on their own wheel. I'm inclined to believe that he's actually got entirely separate PCBs and you are basically switching between internal hardware components as you change your device. Effectively making it, almost literally, 2 wheels in one.

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Perhaps you are right, but this is what Logitech has to say about it:

http://forums.logitech.com/t5/Steering- ... /m-p/82197

Logitech seems pretty adamant about it.

Interesting post. Pretty much says the same thing I did.

Note that "Chris_P" from Logitech very specifically makes no mention of not being able, afford, or being inhibited in any way from licensing from Microsoft (because they're not, and the license isn't that much, they've licensed 360 peripherals in the past, including a wheel). He simply says that their wheels don't work on the 360 because they're not licensed. And he says that the reason they're not licensed is because they simply don't, and won't, work on the 360.

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Interesting post. Pretty much says the same thing I did.

Note that "Chris_P" from Logitech very specifically makes no mention of not being able, afford, or being inhibited in any way from licensing from Microsoft (because they're not, and the license isn't that much, they've licensed 360 peripherals in the past, including a wheel). He simply says that their wheels don't work on the 360 because they're not licensed. And he says that the reason they're not licensed is because they simply don't, and won't, work on the 360.

I don't disagree. The problem here however remains Microsoft. It would be in their interest to find a way to get Logitech and others on board. As much as I would love to, I will have to pass on an Xbox and Forza 3, MS loses, people like me lose. Too much invested in my wheel setup. Oh well.

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I don't disagree. The problem here however remains Microsoft. It would be in their interest to find a way to get Logitech and others on board. As much as I would love to, I will have to pass on an Xbox and Forza 3, MS loses, people like me lose. Too much invested in my wheel setup. Oh well.

Regardless of whatever MS would do, you would have to buy a new wheel. It is impossible to make your wheel setup work with the 360. Can't be done. So you may prefer that you could buy a new Logitech wheel rather than a Fanatec one, but MS did about all it could do to make an option for you; its just apparently not the company you'd prefer (and that's certainly your prerogative); but regardless you lose your investment in your wheel setup. MS "getting others on board" can't change that.

Unless by "getting others on board" you really mean that MS needs to drop its XID requirement for all 360 devices. But that's not going to happen. Not only would it be a huge architectural change but it would cost MS its control over exactly who, what, and how devices interact with the 360.

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I think the underlying problem here is that we have PS3/Logitech people trying to convince people that it's not "worth" it to make the purchase(s) of a new wheel or a 360, etc... since Logitech wheels do not work on the 360, and then on the flipside we have the Microsoft/360/Fanatec supporters trying to convince people it is worth it, but the problem is that the die hards on either side of the argument are not going to change their minds either way. If you think it is worth the time and investment, fine do it then (I know I have and will), but if you don't, then well... don't. But no one on either side needs to continue to debate the facts over and over again. Until Logitech decides to add the proper driver support to their wheels, it just won't happen.

The point of this thread is for the review of the show and the Forza 3 review. Simple as that.

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Aloha guys

I enjoyed the Forza 3 review very much!!!!

Great job

It's good to see that console racing games are taken sirious now

Keep up the good works

Greets Dave

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My m8 has it and I have been playing it today really really nice, the painters may be a little disappointed as it looks to be the same as fm2, I was hoping for more tbh but its still fcuking great, fiat 500 is a little rocket.

The handling feels very true to life and the cars all drive differently big thumbs up from me :D

Incar view FTW WOOT !!!

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Now that more and more people are getting Forza 3 and they are reporting that there is no longer any way to create custom public matches and that you cannot load a setup for your car in the multi-player lobbies if InsideSimRacing is going to adjust their review score?

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Hello, this is my first post but I been watching your videos for quite a while. I love your show! Enjoy every episode especially game and hardware review. I play racing games on PS3 and actually I play only racing games. last episode made me want xbox so that I would see what Forza is all about. I am close to just break down and get a console and a wheel just for this game. I do have a question though. My local BestBuy has some kind of 2 disk edition of Forza 2 for under 20 bucks. I mean, $20 bucks is not a big deal but question is, is it actually worth it at this point when Forza 3 is just about to hit the shelf? I mean, how much games actually overlap in terms if car and track selection? Does Forza 2 offers something at this point that Forza 3 does not.

Thank you in advance.

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The topic of Wheel compatibility is very interesting to me as I hate the Idea or having 2 different wheels and remount a wheel every time I want to play on different console. This factor alone been stopping me form getting xbox so far. But I am not so convinced with the motion that any solution at this point will require a new wheel. Ok, we have 2 protocols HD (host based) and XD controller based. Difference is primary software to handle communication between host and controller. I do not believe that both protocols are so complicated that some kind of converter box that would take XD as input and generate hd as output cannot be done. Think about it lets say some mediator takes XD commands from xbox and acts on them by converting then into hd and shipping then to Logitech wheel. I personally would rather pay $100 for a box like this then get a new wheel. In fact, I think MS needs to offer this converter. In fact they already do it since Windows support both protocols.

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At this point I would spend the extra cash and get FM3. Maybe just to have it for $20 would be cool.. Once you get FM3 you probably won't go back.

Hello, this is my first post but I been watching your videos for quite a while. I love your show! Enjoy every episode especially game and hardware review. I play racing games on PS3 and actually I play only racing games. last episode made me want xbox so that I would see what Forza is all about. I am close to just break down and get a console and a wheel just for this game. I do have a question though. My local BestBuy has some kind of 2 disk edition of Forza 2 for under 20 bucks. I mean, $20 bucks is not a big deal but question is, is it actually worth it at this point when Forza 3 is just about to hit the shelf? I mean, how much games actually overlap in terms if car and track selection? Does Forza 2 offers something at this point that Forza 3 does not.

Thank you in advance.

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The topic of Wheel compatibility is very interesting to me as I hate the Idea or having 2 different wheels and remount a wheel every time I want to play on different console. This factor alone been stopping me form getting xbox so far. But I am not so convinced with the motion that any solution at this point will require a new wheel. Ok, we have 2 protocols HD (host based) and XD controller based. Difference is primary software to handle communication between host and controller. I do not believe that both protocols are so complicated that some kind of converter box that would take XD as input and generate hd as output cannot be done. Think about it lets say some mediator takes XD commands from xbox and acts on them by converting then into hd and shipping then to Logitech wheel. I personally would rather pay $100 for a box like this then get a new wheel. In fact, I think MS needs to offer this converter. In fact they already do it since Windows support both protocols.

Then why doesn't Logitech make a converter? Microsoft made a decision to support XID instead of HID on the 360. Did they do it because it is superior or because they wanted it to be more proprietary and thus more difficult for 3rd parties to program for. I don't know. Maybe a bit of both.

Windows supports both protocols but that doesn't mean they are converting from one to the other. I have heard that the MS wheel works with Windows but does not do force feedback. Maybe this is with HID games and if there was a PC game with XID commands, the FF would work. (There may not be a PC game that supports XID)

From what I understand, HID tells the device exactly what to do. XID sends more raw info and the device figures out what to do. My guess is that in HID, the game sends a command like, "clockwise force" and the device is dumb and just does what the game tells it to do. The game sends more raw info to the XID device, like "car is sliding right". The device then decides what to do from that command, like provide clockwise force. It would seem to me that the XID device is more complicated but it would make programming the game easier.

I am not saying that a converter is not possible, but it can't be that easy to do. If it was, Logitech or someone would have made one. And if it was that easy, Fanatec wouldn't have had such a struggle getting a wheel that works for the 360.

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This is slightly going off-topic, but I am not sure what Microsoft chose to do is the right thing. I think it makes more sense to have the intelligence in the game or host than the wheel. Maybe HID interface has some shortcomings like limited bandwidth or constraints on the level of information detail / command variety that you can send to the wheel controller. But 'dumbing' down the host part and having more to cover on the wheel side just does not make sense to me.

Of course, I don't know enough to come to conclusions but it seems to me that the easiest solution to this problem will be Microsoft adding an HID layer to XBox360 that will bring the existing wheels back into operation. Technically it looks like a more viable solution than doing it through a XID to HID passthrough device, which, in my opinion can never be good or cheap at the same time :)

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I do not claim to be an expert in this area, but I do have some technical imagination. Based on that I can imagine that XD protocol is not just per say Wheel related. It is probably for supporting a variety of things including that shaking rig that Daren been sitting in introduction video. Should they support XD? Absolutely! Why not. But they also should of have support for HD as well. They choose not to. And I personally put the blame on them for that. Could other companies make a converter? Probably yes or maybe not , I do not know. but without a proper licensing from Microsoft, they would not be able to put xbox logo on it and there for would not be able to sell it. All around I think that Microsoft at fault here for not supporting more standard protocol, for not letting Logitec to develop a proper wheel and basically for keeping xbox some what same way as Apple keeps Macs, not letting anyone to contribute.

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Question around Forza 3 assists.

So far I've been playing the DEMO and I have my time down on the BMW Mini to 1.17 seconds, which is in the top two percent. I can't seem to get any faster, but when I'm looking at the leader board I notice they run with no assists except for this mark on the far right. I don't know what this means. My thought is that it stands for manual with a clutch. But I can't make it out for sure.

I'm running the xbox 360 wheel so we set it to manual without the clutch and it shows a small mark under the AUTO transmission assist. The fastest folks on the demo don't have this mark... just the one on the far right.

So, Is their a button on the xbox 360 wheel that is supported by the clutch or do I have to accept that I'll never be as fast as those with a Fanatic Wheel?

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Question around Forza 3 assists.

So far I've been playing the DEMO and I have my time down on the BMW Mini to 1.17 seconds, which is in the top two percent. I can't seem to get any faster, but when I'm looking at the leader board I notice they run with no assists except for this mark on the far right. I don't know what this means. My thought is that it stands for manual with a clutch. But I can't make it out for sure.

I'm running the xbox 360 wheel so we set it to manual without the clutch and it shows a small mark under the AUTO transmission assist. The fastest folks on the demo don't have this mark... just the one on the far right.

So, Is their a button on the xbox 360 wheel that is supported by the clutch or do I have to accept that I'll never be as fast as those with a Fanatic Wheel?

One section of the transmission indicator means it is manual w/o clutch. On the Xbox 360 wheel, the clutch button is "A" by default. I will not be using the clutch much since the placement is rather inconvenient.

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Hey Darin, Shaun & Jess,

Just stumbled across your channel, and have to say i love it!! First real group of car enthusiasts that give a good car game review!! I agree, i love forza 3, but they really need to improve the multiplayer matchmaking which Che (Forza community manager) says they will improve.. but i recently ordered my Fanatec wheel early october and cant wait for it to get in..

Again i'll be visiting you guys again soon and wanted to commend you on:

- great points

- nice weighted rating scale

- HOT hostess JEssica, watch out Olivia munn!!

- cool vibe overall!!

I just added you Darin on XBL - gamertag = AlexXxLude (couldnt find your Gamertag, Shaun)

Also like how you mounted 6 speed shifter. im going to think of doing that w/my rig...

my rig -

n619657812_1902223_4057.jpg

n619657812_1902221_3322.jpg

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Well we once again moved the studios. Hopefully this is the last time.

We will be back in Forza any day, just trying to get situated.

My namer tag is Shaun SRT there is a space between my name and SRT.

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Hahaaaaa thats why I could not find your tag shaun !

Ill add ya tomorrow I have added darin his was easy no space, my tag is FCTAFF

For me a pad and a R2 car is bad news Im just to heavy fingered :shock: I want my fanatec

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