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Why the need for so much torque ?

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After running the Accuforce the last few weeks, I've been scratching my head wondering why the heck people want so much additional torque. First off, I don't think it's realistic to get a workout with most sim cars. Maybe a handful of open wheelers, but even those don't need someone built like the hulk to wheel it. Look at Danica Patrick.. She's freaking tiny and was driving an Indycar. Sure I bet she's in good shape, but I've met her in person and she's like five foot nothing.

 

Today I watch this video with Niels Heusinkveld grunting and struggling to get this Aussie V8 around Bathurst and was getting a good laugh out of it and thinking to myself that anyone struggling that much to run one lap wouldn't stand a chance at beating me in a long distance race.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNVLr7hhs9A

 

If you watch my Accuforce first look here at the 10:50 mark, I drive the Lotus 79 at Limerock and my wrists were sore after a few laps and I was sweating..  I'm not in great shape, but not bad and a fairly big guy at 6'4" and 215 lbs. When I tuned it back, my lap times got faster..

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzycCBnxaN8

 

So is more that much better and if so, why ?? Are you faster when the wheel is dancing around that much from the extra torque ? What about harder to turn in the corners like Niels in that video ? What's your stamina like ? Are you more of a sim racer, or sim driver ? Just curious to hear your thoughts on it. After testing the AF myself and seeing that Sim Racing Garage video where they all wanted more torque, it got me really wondering.. why..

 

Enlighten me !

 

Is there anyone near me in Spokane WA that has an OSW or Bodnar I could try to see what all the hub bub is about ?

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For me even 100% T500RS force feedback is too much and not realistic.Thats why most of the people use 60%. But on the question why many guys want more - my answer is : Because having so much industrial force makes people to think that they use simulator hardware and are  far away from plastic ffb wheels - Toys.

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Looking forward to watching your review Darin!

 

As far as torque...only from what I've read there are typically two answers we get for more torque.

1. There is more fidelity in FFB during high speed cornering and generally during the mid range of a sim's FFB output. The extra torque allows the sim driver to feel more nuances in torque during those mid range to high torque moments.

2. Some simply want 1:1 feedback.

 

You can't argue 2. As for 1, I dont own a DD wheel yet to confirm this :)

 

Darin, enjoy the new wheel and welcome to the DD wheel club

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I agree. I want 1:1 feedback and wish I could feel the subtle nuances more. But if I had a DD wheel, it would probably be set at 50% force if not less. My t300 at 90% is plenty and I wouldnt want more. It already can rip your wrists off if your not paying attention.

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Just a bit of anecdotal evidence from the real world. I co-drove for a friend and his 1993 Impreza FWD in stage rally, it had a front LSD with tons of preload. I would challenge any sim wheel to beat the work out this car can give on a dirt road.  :eek: The feedback from an improperly setup ditch hook or just hitting a rock on the road can break fingers/wrists/arms easily. It had power steering too, manual steering would be nigh impossible without hulk arms.

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The higher torque and higher quality ffb motors will generally mean the wheel will turn and accelerate and change direction faster as well it´s not just about the torque figures in themselves. Gokarts, formulas etc some cars are supposed to numb you after just some lap. Where the limit is is hard to say though me personally I am not going to tune it so I have to quit an endurance race after 40 minutes but you get the benefits of a 30 nm torque servo motor while running much less.

 

Hope you get to try an OSW to see the difference. Barry have done some great reviews a nice comparison I haven´t yet seen would be a small mige package as it can be had for less then an Accuforce. Reportedly it´s closer to the lenze then the accuforce.

 

As for going fast yes if you can´t control the wheel you are likely going to loose time but on the same time it can make it just about impossible to use it wrong.

I run quite heavy pedals and you have to work to look the wheels and keep them locked instead of the opposite with a set of stock G27 pedals. On cars where locking don´t mean all that much I am loosing time if running them to stiff. 

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I'm really interested in reading reviews on the small Midge OSW. With the current exchange rate, the small Midge is cheaper than the Accuforce, by a considerable margin.

The Midge motor based OSW's are the only direct drive servo motor competitors, in the same price range as the Accuforce. I'm sure this is the comparison that many sim racers are interested in.

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I guess if you work a desk job and don't go to the gym the accuforce isn't going to be for you...on the other hand if you work manual labour and work out then its another fitness tool...right now I am swimming a lot and using battle ropes for upper body strength..core and arms and I find my csw just aint cutting it...after 6 weeks of developing my core strength I really am looking at getting a wheel with more force...i'll be opening my tinned goods popeye style soon and this means my csw is gonna feel like a bungee cord wheel....uguguguguguug...whataya know olive...

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I think it's often tempting to crank the force feedback all the way up on a new wheel, and in the past, you had to do that. Now, with today's brushed dual-motor belt, servo motor belt, and direct drive wheels, running them at 100% FF is unrealistic. Even at 80%, the Thrustmaster TX can wrench itself out of your hands when the car begins to oversteer. 

 

I have raced real karts for as long as 30-minutes. They are very physical, you do need a little muscle for some lower-speed turns, I might "slightly" break a sweat, and I know I've had a workout when it's over. I wear gloves, and the only time the "FF" becomes too strong, causing you to possibly lose grip of the wheel, is if a tire catches the edge of the track, a curb, or a barrier. Also, I was able to drive off-road a couple of times in a small 70's Renault (don't remember the model), very aggressively. It's also physical, but I never remember a time that the "FF" required you to put some muscle into maintaining control of the wheel. The vibrations and wheel movement were definitely very strong, but not so much that you were fighting with it.

 

I think my only interest in an Accuforce or any other similar wheel would be it's responsiveness and if it provides higher fidelity than other "lower-end" wheels. Do you get a smoother and longer "power band" at the lower FF settings while getting quick and realistic changes in direction? As you turn up the FF level, Is the potential for clipping drastically reduced? For this, a larger, higher-grade motor, along with the correct drivers and setup, might do that... but I'm not so sure.

 

When should the FF be so strong that is requires some "muscle" to turn and control? Only at slower speeds or if the car is sitting still--if you don't have power assist or you're in a wide-tired open-wheel car. The only exception to this is if you hit a taller curb or barrier at high speed--but you shouldn't have the FF turned up so high that you injure yourself. I think many simulators get this low-speed FF aspect wrong, while others, like iRacing and Assetto Corsa do this quite well.

 

In March, earlier this year, I ran laps around Watkins Glen in the Indy Car in iRacing with my Thrustmaster TX for about 45 minutes (adjusting setup, finding a better line and rhythm). iRacing's FF for the Indy Car is very good. Immediately after this long session with my setup, I tried an Accurforce with the same car and track, and ran about ten laps.

 

My impressions...

 

I was impressed with the Accuforce, and I could definitely see and feel the quality... but I wasn't blown away. Yes, it felt great, I could tell the motor was much higher quality, I know the Accuforce should last a lot longer than lesser wheels.

 

However, I went away from the experience actually appreciating my Thrustmaster TX even more. I suspect they're still tweaking things for the Accuforce, but overall, I felt it only delivered a "slight" degree of quality-of-feel over the Thrustmaster TX. I know the Accuforce had been adjusted so it wasn't turned up to deliver its full "torque," and that's a good thing, because I was able to get a better feel for the other, actually more important characteristics of the wheel--its fidelity and responsiveness.

 

I will say the Accuforce is an investment in quality, and with the correct settings, will deliver very good feel and experience for years to come.

 

However, I think an "elitist" attitude towards other "lesser" wheels is unwarranted, and if you own a Thrustmaster TX, T300, T500, or Fanatec CSWBv2 (or even CSWBv1 or CSR Elite), you should appreciate and take confidence in your wheel and how well it performs.

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I'm coming from purely design/reliability POV.

 

It is far safer to run a strong system at lower capacity than to run a weaker system at its full capacity.  If the components (motors) are over-designed/spec'd, they are less likely to fail in the long run.

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I think it's often tempting to crank the force feedback all the way up on a new wheel, and in the past, you had to do that. Now, with today's brushed dual-motor belt, servo motor belt, and direct drive wheels, running them at 100% FF is unrealistic. Even at 80%, the Thrustmaster TX can wrench itself out of your hands when the car begins to oversteer. 

 

I have raced real karts for as long as 30-minutes. They are very physical, you do need a little muscle for some lower-speed turns, I might "slightly" break a sweat, and I know I've had a workout when it's over. I wear gloves, and the only time the "FF" becomes too strong, causing you to possibly lose grip of the wheel, is if a tire catches the edge of the track, a curb, or a barrier. Also, I was able to drive off-road a couple of times in a small 70's Renault (don't remember the model), very aggressively. It's also physical, but I never remember a time that the "FF" required you to put some muscle into maintaining control of the wheel. The vibrations and wheel movement were definitely very strong, but not so much that you were fighting with it.

 

I think my only interest in an Accuforce or any other similar wheel would be it's responsiveness and if it provides higher fidelity than other "lower-end" wheels. Do you get a smoother and longer "power band" at the lower FF settings while getting quick and realistic changes in direction? As you turn up the FF level, Is the potential for clipping drastically reduced? For this, a larger, higher-grade motor, along with the correct drivers and setup, might do that... but I'm not so sure.

 

When should the FF be so strong that is requires some "muscle" to turn and control? Only at slower speeds or if the car is sitting still--if you don't have power assist or you're in a wide-tired open-wheel car. The only exception to this is if you hit a taller curb or barrier at high speed--but you shouldn't have the FF turned up so high that you injure yourself. I think many simulators get this low-speed FF aspect wrong, while others, like iRacing and Assetto Corsa do this quite well.

 

In March, earlier this year, I ran laps around Watkins Glen in the Indy Car in iRacing with my Thrustmaster TX for about 45 minutes (adjusting setup, finding a better line and rhythm). iRacing's FF for the Indy Car is very good. Immediately after this long session with my setup, I tried an Accurforce with the same car and track, and ran about ten laps.

 

My impressions...

 

I was impressed with the Accuforce, and I could definitely see and feel the quality... but I wasn't blown away. Yes, it felt great, I could tell the motor was much higher quality, I know the Accuforce should last a lot longer than lesser wheels.

 

However, I went away from the experience actually appreciating my Thrustmaster TX even more. I suspect they're still tweaking things for the Accuforce, but overall, I felt it only delivered a "slight" degree of quality-of-feel over the Thrustmaster TX. I know the Accuforce had been adjusted so it wasn't turned up to deliver its full "torque," and that's a good thing, because I was able to get a better feel for the other, actually more important characteristics of the wheel--its fidelity and responsiveness.

 

I will say the Accuforce is an investment in quality, and with the correct settings, will deliver very good feel and experience for years to come.

 

However, I think an "elitist" attitude towards other "lesser" wheels is unwarranted, and if you own a Thrustmaster TX, T300, T500, or Fanatec CSWBv2 (or even CSWBv1 or CSR Elite), you should appreciate and take confidence in your wheel and how well it performs.

 

Now that I know how to tune the Accuforce, I bet I could change your opinion ;-) . I wish I knew how back at iRace4Life as I would have loved to get impressions from a variety of people there with it tuned properly. The default settings are good.. Properly tuned settings feel amazing to me. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I agree with your opinion of the lower end wheels and the bottom line is that you can be just as fast with any wheel you feel comfortable with. 

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Having owned the AF for several months now i have started to reduce the torque on the wheel.  Like most people when I first got it I started tuning so I has loads of force and feedback.  I also took part in the first three phases of the SimXperience additional force testing which followed the DD wheel comparison review.  After a while I started to realise that there was so much going on in the wheel that I was getting confused and overwhelmed.

 

For the past month i've reduced my forces and also cut back on the effects my wheel uses, so that what I do feel is easy to identify with.  This has helped my driving no end.  I'm now using the enhanced precision and feedback of the DD wheel and feeling only those forces that help keep control and maximise stability.

 

To add to the effects i'm running in the wheel i've invested in a good simvibe chassis setup with 4 Buttkicker Mini LFE's, one in each corner and a good amp.  Things like road bumps and suspension effects are mainly channeled through simvibe rather than the wheel now and the whole thing feels far more natural.

 

Personally I see high torque as nice and fun, but in the end not what I want.  The AF has way more than I need but also has super fast response and great feel.  I'm very happy with my setup.

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I don't need extreme high torque like the bodnar but....

 

When i had the CSWv1 i was very satified with the torque delived by the wheel. Than last year i got an invitation from Fanatec to beta test the CSWv2.

I was overwelmed with it's power at first, thinking that the torque delivered by the CSWv2 would be more than i ever need, The SC4 tuning capabilities convinced me into buying the AF, not the higher available torque.

 

2 months ago i got the Accuforce.

 

Due to a shoulder injury i started in the recruit mode and in the last 2 months i build up a tollerance and slowly moved up through the different modes and now i using the highest mode: responsive peaks allowed

 

Now 2 months later, if i go back to a lower mode, the wheel doesn't feel right to me. So up to a certain point i can understand that the stronger guys love to have a stronger wheel. I'm very satisfied with my AF, but i would mind if Berney would raise the voltage to 36v and give us some extra power on the AF

 

The quest for higher torque also depends a lot on which car you drive the most.

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After running the Accuforce the last few weeks, I've been scratching my head wondering why the heck people want so much additional torque.

 

Someone needs to take a pair of Vice Grips and clamp them on the brake booster and steer rack lines on @Darin's Camaro. ...and change out the wheels for some extra heavy, unforged "24"s (gotta max out that unsprung weight) while you're at it!

 

He's from LA. He should like the new wheels!  :mrgreen:

 

Extra points can be earned if you tint the windows a Compton shade of gray and fill the back with a half dozen 18" woofers and some nice, Phat (phat as in massive harmonic distortion) amplifiers. A little gold hanging from the mirror would be a nice touch too!  :ph34r:  

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I can't comment on the equipment at hand, but I've never really enjoyed lots of FF.  I like to get feedback from the wheel, but I find it easier to be precise when things are on the soft side.  My feeling is everyone is different, and will enjoy/require different settings from their gear.  I'm thankful its easy these days to get exactly what you like from modern wheels. 

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Some people just really want that 1:1 experience, and who is anyone to tell them they're wrong? Also, torque levels are relative. If you're in shape and you've conditioned the appropriate muscle groups, the torque levels will seem considerably less, obviously.

 

Having said that, the high end servos found in the OSW/Bodnar wheels also just feel better at any torque level, according to those who have used multiple direct-drive wheels. Smoother, more responsive, more detailed, less cogging, more natural, etc. But that shouldn't surprise anyone. The $300-$1500 servo motors should outperform the $70 stepper motor in the Accuforce, regardless of the Sim Commander wizardry.

 

The latter is what swayed me to the OSW, rather than extreme torque levels. Also, a small Mige OSW with a Sam Maxwell Momo custom comes in at a bit less than the Accuforce Pro. Easy choice, in my opinion.

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