Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Why the need for so much torque ?

125 posts in this topic

Knowledge  belongs to the mankind! Forums are not only to chat a while , but to find needed info and knowledge there. Why Barry dont go out with a woman ,but doing these videos? Why we all post and comment?;) And to buy best wheel - you must know which is best.

 

If you have topic that is interesting for you and if you found people to discuss about it - why not to do this?

 

When you visit a forum dedicated to a specific hoby like SImracing - I believe this is the best place to discuss for wheels,games etc...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm going chime in here, and this may get wordy, but f-it, I'm bored at work.

I've tried the AF in Ohio at simX and i had an AF on order (not anymore), and can elaborate more on the loonacy / mindset of those who choose osw, but im only using myself as example. Spoiler, it had nothing to do with torque.

When I tried the AF in Ohio, I tested 3 different cars with the AF. "Game mode" (non linear...I hate non linear mode) as well as ffb foundation (sc4 / linear ffb) were tried. It did not "wow" me like i had expected it to. It felt heavy, and springy and just odd. It was veeery strong though.

Now, I had to accept the fact that Bernie and Kevin could not show me around the software because of unfortunate circumstances, but Bernie sr. was there to hang out when I tried. And i played with settings, having seen many of the tutorials. Still, it felt odd, strong, but not amazing. That was my experience.

I know there's a market for the AF. But I'm not it. I was disappointed, but knew that it was likely that the profile wasn't set up correctly. Well, there's what got me thinking.

Weeks later, after watching the comparison at srg. my hesitations and doubt about stemming from my previous experience were exemplified in the form of other impressions about the AF in that video. "Springy, "like ice" and "somethimg felt off" were just examples of the impressions in the video. Yes, it may be true that the profiles were not as good as they should have been, but that's not the point. Why even have software that i have to muck with just to make it feel right?

So having felt that way, and seeing what the alternative investment was (osw), I realised what I wanted,and what I didn't want: I didn't want a software suite to muck with ffb. I just wanted strong, awesome, ffb from Iracing that didn't require me to tune it. If the af wheel can be misconfigured in so many ways, yet still fall short when compared to alternative offerings (osw) when it IS configired, then its not for me.

I'm not a torque junkie, I just want a linear experience without the requirement to muck with settings all the time. My reason to get an osw was self justified. And it didn't involve a crazy urge for more torque. Sure as hell not gona complain about the added torque though lol.

additional torque range of the osw is a huge reason that was stated by many other guys, and I frankly see that reason very justifyable too. But that doesn't have to be the reason to buy one over the other. Plug-and-play, and customizable, are top priorities for some guys. AF makes a hell of a lot of sense for some guys in that regard.

Another hobby of mine is music production. Soundcloud.com/jameshigh. Just like in music, dynamic range adds life, excitement, and movement. More power combined with more dynamic range equates to more impact to the listener.

When beano posted some of his impressions between osw and AF in a thread (not saying where) he did his best to express this concept about dynamic range in regards to ffb feel.

Other points about dd wheels are valid. No matter which one ya get, its still a leap into high-def ffb.

There shouldn't have to be a torque war in the dd wheel market. If it appears that way, its because we're all nuts for this stuff, and the dd wheel market is heating up. It's all a win win for us! there are valid reasons why torque matters. My only nitpick is when i read s posting about how unrealistic or unnecessary havimg more torque range is. Torque isnt on the top of my priorities list, but i understand why it can make a massive difference.

I really am pretty nuts for ffb and sim racing. And I laugh about it with friends.

If my ramblings offend you, seem crazy, sound like "bs" to you, or appear unwarranted, Id just like to state that I have the utmost respect for simX. But my opinion is just that. If ya got mean stuff to reply with, I'd recommend you just look me up on Iracing and school me with whatever wheel you're driving with. I got NO ego. I just love sim racing. (And love typing it would seem)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Knowledge  belongs to the mankind! Forums are not only to chat a while , but to find needed info and knowledge there. Why Barry dont go out with a woman ,but doing these videos? Why we all post and comment?;) And to buy best wheel - you must know which is best.

 

If you have topic that is interesting for you and if you found people to discuss about it - why not to do this?

 

When you visit a forum dedicated to a specific hoby like SImracing - I believe this is the best place to discuss for wheels,games etc...

Yeah man. I wasn't attacking you, apologies if it sounded this way, cheers buddy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just watched Barry`s review of the 3 wheels - complete this time. Last time I checked only highlights. OSW completely kicks AF. Bodnar steps back a bit and for the price difference is solid second and cant compete OSW.Bary and other guys helping him are very diplomatic,but was very clear that they see AF like first from bottom to top;) I am dissapointed ,because I expected more from SImX.They have a lot experience in the FFB department.

 

Wow, you are late on that one, mate :smile:

 

What I always found strange is why a critical discussion about sim gear so often gets interpreted as bashing.

I mean it's our money...and if there's a sim racer who didn't waste his money on inferior gear because of that critical discussion it's a good thing. Please understand this as a general point - not saying any dd wheel is inferior.

 

How can a reader get anything out of these forums if we can't be blunt about our experiences with sim gear or if points of concern can't be raised?

 

The good thing about all these dd wheel threads and reviews is they provided lots of information about the gear available. You can't get that from a manufacturer's website.

 

I've followed that pretty much right from the start and believe you get a good picture about what you're getting in regard to hardware, software and customer support with the options available.

 

Reading about two fellow sim racers having a public discussion on whatever forum and different opinions about what option is the 'better' one can provide valuable information for you considering a purchase.

Razorsimon for example posted some very interesting ideas about how he's setting up his AF. You get these sort of things just on the side and I find that useful as well.

 

Another thing we have to keep in mind is that just because some of us have followed this matter for some time doesn't mean it's the same for others. So someone not having followed sim racing development gets into this and we get the same discussions we've had previously a while back.

 

As long as it's not getting personal it's good and helpful...that's my opinion anyway.

 

If someone says my car, sim rig, mobile phone or whatever is crap...so what? ...I don't have a problem with that...not at all.

Let's be relaxed about this and value freedom of speech... :)

 

Cheers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thirsty , the most interesting in Barry`s review is that this time he have guests testers. Experienced guys I believe. And all of them + Barry can`t be wrong. I am sure Barry checked almost everything to make AF feels better. Even the guy that own AF - put it on 3rd place. Nobody there or here said AF is a crap. Just can`t compete with OSW and Bodnar .For now. When we all waited AF - I was 100% sure that will beat any DIY based and Bodnar wheel. Because of the experience with FFB software and hardware of SimX.

It is very dissapointing to see that jimmyhigh dont like it even compared to nothing.

 

Btw from the guys here very valuable for me is the oppinion of Avenga76. I believe he have AF now. He have DD wheel 100% ,but can`t remember the brand. 

 

What happens with the DD wheel of these spanish guys? Never heard someone to use it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting comments jimmy, thanks for sharing.

 

I've yet to try any DD wheel, but your feelings seem to echo my thoughts in that I'm not looking for the most outright torque to rip the wheel out of my hands.  With that being said, your analogy about music is a good one, its the dynamics of the highs and lows that can create a more vast range.  I also want to make sure that for my personal use, I'm not over analyzing specifics that only apply to iRacing open wheelers (which seems to mostly be the case).  I'm not an iRacing fan.

 

Knowing me, I want more of a set it and forget it type of experience.  The current choices in SimCommander are great for tuning my motion, but I'll admit there are a lot and I'm not 100% sure I have them as 'ideal' as possible.  Its more of a 'yeah, this feels good' range, but I wouldn't be shocked if someone with their own stage4 ever came over and said "oh, why do you have this like this...here try this" and I could see it being that much better/different.  I often get paralysis by analysis on many things, so I'd like a wheel that just works without much tinkering.

 

With this as what I'm after, I think thats where I'm confused.  Most think AF is the choice as its a complete package that works out of the box, but all these reports show the endless tuning options can lead to confusion or poor experiences due to 'bad tuning.  Where the OSW options seem to be for the DIY tinkerer, the stories I am hearing are that, once built, its just plug in and go.  If I am wrong on that and you do need to tune its software, please correct me, as I have no experience in that regard.  Weird that the DIY route seems to be more straightforward and the complete package option seems to require more tinkering.  In the end, does that ability to tinker everything make the AF the preferred route for non-iRacing titles since you can 'fix' certain game's FF?  

 

Saving a few hundred dollars one way or another isn't important to me.  I just want something that works well, without fuss...I'm having a hard time figuring out which that is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thirsty , the most interesting in Barry`s review is that this time he have guests testers. Experienced guys I believe. And all of them + Barry can`t be wrong. I am sure Barry checked almost everything to make AF feels better. Even the guy that own AF - put it on 3rd place. Nobody there or here said AF is a crap. Just can`t compete with OSW and Bodnar .For now. When we all waited AF - I was 100% sure that will beat any DIY based and Bodnar wheel. Because of the experience with FFB software and hardware of SimX.

It is very dissapointing to see that jimmyhigh dont like it even compared to nothing.

 

Btw from the guys here very valuable for me is the oppinion of Avenga76. I believe he have AF now. He have DD wheel 100% ,but can`t remember the brand. 

 

What happens with the DD wheel of these spanish guys? Never heard someone to use it.

 

It's not just you and me who were expecting the AF to be the new benchmark for sim wheels.

It's all too obvious. There was the Bodnar and the OSw on the market. The Bodnar was/is quite expensive and I thought it wasn't that good in regard to its controller software, especially considering the upcoming AF which runs on SC.

I believe I was wrong. 

The OSw seemed to be just too much of a challenge for me. I wasn't aware Dennis is selling assembled kits either.

So the best option for me seemed to be:  w a i t   f o r   t h e   A F.

 

Then Barry comes up with his review and suddenly the whole story looked very different...and the obvious thought came up: I could have got myself an OSw a year ago / why the f** did I bother putting my name on a manufacturer's waiting list?

Could have been worse for me. I didn't park big $$ for a few months on someone else's bank account just to figure out for myself that I gotta sell this wheel again and get an OSw which I could have purchased 1.5 years earlier.

On the other hand I believe I'm not hardcore sim racer enough that I would have wanted to swap to an OSw if I had purchased an AF. I'd be most likely happy with it as the majority of AF owners.

 

In regard to the Pro SW dd wheel from EC Sim Hardware I can recommend a thread on virtualracing.org: http://forum.virtualracing.org/showthread.php/93592-EC-Sim-Hardware-Pro-Simwheel

You need to speak German or have a good translator.

 

I flicked through it and came to the conclusion that's not an option...too many technical issues. Dennis has done an OSw conversion with at least one of them...it works.

 

 

 

 

...

With this as what I'm after, I think thats where I'm confused.  Most think AF is the choice as its a complete package that works out of the box, but all these reports show the endless tuning options can lead to confusion or poor experiences due to 'bad tuning.  Where the OSW options seem to be for the DIY tinkerer, the stories I am hearing are that, once built, its just plug in and go.  If I am wrong on that and you do need to tune its software, please correct me, as I have no experience in that regard.  Weird that the DIY route seems to be more straightforward and the complete package option seems to require more tinkering.  In the end, does that ability to tinker everything make the AF the preferred route for non-iRacing titles since you can 'fix' certain game's FF?  

...

 

I was wondering if it's just me thinking that way.

As far as I know Ollie's kit can be assembled without even the use of a soldering iron...you need a screw driver:-) It's apparently well described what to do so it must be a very straightforward and quick procedure.

It seems to me there are Lego kits for 12 year old kids which may be more difficult to put together.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With this as what I'm after, I think thats where I'm confused.  Most think AF is the choice as its a complete package that works out of the box, but all these reports show the endless tuning options can lead to confusion or poor experiences due to 'bad tuning.  Where the OSW options seem to be for the DIY tinkerer, the stories I am hearing are that, once built, its just plug in and go.  If I am wrong on that and you do need to tune its software, please correct me, as I have no experience in that regard.  Weird that the DIY route seems to be more straightforward and the complete package option seems to require more tinkering.  In the end, does that ability to tinker everything make the AF the preferred route for non-iRacing titles since you can 'fix' certain game's FF?  

 

It's odd, but everyone forgets that the AF can be used without the SimCommander software which means it's exactly the same as using a OSW wheel where you just use the FF settings in the game.  Don't get me wrong i'm a fan of the AF because I have one and am very happy with it... i have not had a chance to try the OSW so can't comment on any differences, I just find it really odd that people are so adamant that there solution is better than the others.  One day I will get to try the OSW but as I said before I think you need more than a short session with any wheel to truly understand it and be comfortable.  Jimmyhigh, you said you went to Ohio to try the AF, but you can't have had anywhere near long enough to have got used to it.

 

As I keep saying here... It really does not matter which wheel you go for, indeed even the non direct drive wheels are good and we should stop making people feel inferior if they don't have what we think is the best wheel out there.  Personally I've invested in the AF and am very happy, but every time I read a post that says it's rubbish against this and that I can't help wondering if I made a mistake, but that's crazy... i'm quite happy with the AF, just like people should be more than happy with their CSW's and Thrustmasters.

 

Can we please stop pressuring people into thinking they need to spend spend spend.  By all means point out what you like about your wheel but stop discrediting others.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you don´t want to read comparisons etc don´t visit these kind of threads? Censorship is no good. There will always be hype of course but it will only be worse if we only let the real commercial forces give us the information we "need".

 

Most here including me is racing against racers that is always 2 seconds faster no matter what gear they run. Should we forbid those racers to race because they are to fast and they are working to make me feel inferior by lapping me? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most here including me is racing against racers that is always 2 seconds faster no matter what gear they run. Should we forbid those racers to race because they are to fast and they are working to make me feel inferior by lapping me? 

 

Hell fire, your only 2 seconds behind the "aliens" - I dream of only being 2 seconds behind LOL

Equipment is no substitute for talent, unfortunately :geek:  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Simon, I know quite a lot of what's been posted on iracing and here on ISR and off the top of my head I'm not aware of just a single post where someone says the AF is rubbish. You get quite a few 'the OSw is clearly better', but that's it.

 

The way I perceive things is it's rather the other way around. I read so many times people saying the AF and the OSw and Bodnar are all great wheels even if they prefer the OSw.

Well, maybe we're referring to different forums.

 

As I've said before I really appreciate if an owner of some sim gear bothers to bring up critical points about his gear. The sales guys of that respective company/manufacturer won't tell you about issues their customers have.

 

If there's criticism there's usually a reason for it.

 

Why don't you find unhappy customers of HE and HPP products? MPPC's customers seem to be extremely happy with their products and the provided customer support as well.

They must be doing something right.

 

Iracing is very manufacturer friendly. Entire threads have been deleted after they went south and left the manufacturer in a bad light. Strange considering that you even have to pay for access to their forum.

Some say that's a space for free ads, but I don't believe that...nothing is for free in business...anyway, just realising I'm getting off topic here...doesn't matter...

 

Cheers  :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's odd, but everyone forgets that the AF can be used without the SimCommander software which means it's exactly the same as using a OSW wheel where you just use the FF settings in the game.  Don't get me wrong i'm a fan of the AF because I have one and am very happy with it... i have not had a chance to try the OSW so can't comment on any differences, I just find it really odd that people are so adamant that there solution is better than the others.  One day I will get to try the OSW but as I said before I think you need more than a short session with any wheel to truly understand it and be comfortable.  Jimmyhigh, you said you went to Ohio to try the AF, but you can't have had anywhere near long enough to have got used to it.

 

As I keep saying here... It really does not matter which wheel you go for, indeed even the non direct drive wheels are good and we should stop making people feel inferior if they don't have what we think is the best wheel out there.  Personally I've invested in the AF and am very happy, but every time I read a post that says it's rubbish against this and that I can't help wondering if I made a mistake, but that's crazy... i'm quite happy with the AF, just like people should be more than happy with their CSW's and Thrustmasters.

 

Can we please stop pressuring people into thinking they need to spend spend spend.  By all means point out what you like about your wheel but stop discrediting others.

 

Simon, I'm assuming your post isn't directed particularly at me despite quoting my post.  I know that AF can be used without SimCommander, but I think SimCommander is one of the main selling points of the AF wheel.  I would not want to bypass it, as I would be simply running a weaker motor against a stronger one.  Besides, I'm already running SimCommander for my Stage 4 motion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No bud, my post was not aimed at anyone it was generic and just trying to balance things a little.  I've seen far too many of these threads get out of hand and the good info lost in the mire... so I have expressed my thoughts and will gracefully drop out of the thread :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Simon brought up a good point, I was not aware you could run games without sim commander at the time of testing. Barry was though. Regardless, I still stand by my opinion about the AF.

In response to the frustration expressed on a post at the end of page 3: There's plenty of reason to talk about what we want to "spend" and offer opinions of what to spend on. Sim racing is an expensive investment, yet we seldom have the luxury to try before we buy. Here we are on forums. If I know a way to get better bang for my buck, I'm going to share it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sim racing is an expensive investment, yet we seldom have the luxury to try before we buy. Here we are on forums. If I know a way to get better bang for my buck, I'm going to share it.

 

 

I'm not a torque junkie, I just want a linear experience without the requirement to muck with settings all the time. 

 

You're making a lot of sense to me jimmy.  Coupled with the lack of response I've been getting from SimXperience lately I'm open to learning as much as I can.  Please keep us posted on your build.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don´t agree about simracing being that expensive though. You can get a used G27 and if you then just avoid iRacing it´s one of the cheaper hobbys out there :) If you don´t have a computer already it´s more of an investment but overall it´s not that bad. 

 

Most hobbies you can make just as expensive as you want though :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I started out with Fanatec CSR gear on my Xbox and how have a full triple projector SimXperience Stage 4+ with a custom built PC.  

 

So yeah, it can be inexpensive...but my outlay is now into 5 figures.  At the end of the day it puts a smile on my face, so its worth it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Today I read this post from Bedo Marardichian (Mockracer) in the iRacing forums and the additional torque makes more sense to me now. Since some of you may not be iRacers, or dig through pages and pages of threads in the iRacing forums, I'll share it here with you.

 

 

Today, Naid, who was one of the reviewers in Barry's review, let me have a go at his 20Nm OSW Lenze wheel. I also brought my AF with me...tools, cables, setups, profiles, and even my racing gloves. That's right, no excuses. 3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif


First, and I think this is important. 

Naid's Lenze OSW, as tested is a ~$4000 package. 
AF Pro, as tested is a $1800 package. 

Right off the bat, I'll answer the big questions: 

1. Was Barry's review correct, and did the AF indeed fall last in the comparison against an OSW and Bodnar? 
2. Was the AF misrepresented and tuned improperly? 

The answers to both of those questions based on my personal experience is YES! 

I am confident, that if I were one of the reviewers there that day, I too would have probably put those wheels in that order, and while I did not try the Bodnar, I can tell you that the AF would have come last. Naid confirmed for me that the differences between the OSW and Bodnar were marginal. He actually had the Bodnar and showed it to me, just no cables for it, so I wasn't able to try it today. Considering the wide array of hardware he had and the ridiculous D-box motion simulator, and that he knew everything inside and out, and because he is also a very highly qualified technologist, I took his word for it. The difference between the OSW Lenze and AF however, was *NOT* marginal. It was very noticeable for sure. 

I was able to provide a tune for the AF which Naid drove with. His feedback confirmed to me that what he experienced at Barry's was most probably clipping and over saturation of certain effects, which made the wheel feel dull in certain scenarios. With my tune, no detail was lost according to his feedback. However, that wasn't enough. 

Now, let's explain this seemingly shocking confirmation in more detail for current and potential AF/OSW/Bodnar owners. 
The reason why the AF falls short in this comparison is because it simply doesn't have enough power. Period. That's all. It's the only reason, and it turned out to be a pretty big reason. 

Does that make it a bad wheel? Certainly not. That's like saying the CSW or the G25 are terrible wheels because they don't generate enough torque. 

The AF tuned properly is capable of delivering detail and information in any scenario in the game, as long as there is enough available torque bandwidth. Even tuned properly, and even with the new responsive mode, the AF did not even come close to the torque output of the Lenze, which was 15-20Nm, depending on how its configured. 

Why was torque the deciding factor? 
Because when you jump a curb at 150mph in the Lotus 79, your Jimmies are so rustled, you swear you were there. That in itself is what distinguished the AF from all other wheels and put it in a league of its own. Also, because you get a much more dynamic range in the types of forces you experience on the track. If you want a proper "experience" driving the DW12 at Long Beach, the AF cannot deliver it as well as the Lenze. That extra headroom in torque is actually quite extra. Is that true for all cars and series? Absolutely not. The AF covers the majority of the cases perfectly fine. However, it won't disorient you if you misjudge and hop a tall curb... or deliver a noticeable level of feedback if you hit a curb while under full tire load. With the higher torque, curbs become a thing you have to respect. That in itself puts a bit of fear into you and drives the immersion up. 

Let me illustrate on a relative scale where the wheels fall into in terms of being able to feel the torque: 

G25 --> CSW --> CSWv2 -------------> AF ------------>(Bodnar?) --> Lenze 

Most cars don't generate that much torque, so why is the extra torque needed? 
While all of these wheels operate well below their range 70-80% of the time (confirmed with telemetry many times many posts ago), when you get into those situations in certain cars where the forces get on the higher end, with extra torque, and we're talking additional 10Nm of torque here, give you a much more immersive picture of what the car is doing under load and what the corner actually feels like at speed as if you were experiencing g-forces. 


What about the AF tuning capabilities and its new responsive mode? 
Even with all of the tuning in the world, and the increased responsive mode, the AF wasn't able to match the torque of the Lenze. Especially when hopping over curbs and all of that. Also, despite the AF giving much detail, it didn't deliver some of the nuances present in torque differences toward the higher end of its power (it was tuned properly, trust me! The only person who can tune the wheel more correctly is Berney himself, and only because he can change the source code. 3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif) Kind of like when there is a camber change, or the wheels alter their grip under load. Not that it doesn't deliver, just that with higher torque, those nuances are more pronounces as there is more torque to differentiate. 

However, the AF's tuning capabilities are unmatched by any wheel. Within its available torque, the tuning capabilities allow you to completely alter its behavior and really dial out most things you don't like. Ok, you can't dial in more torque, we went over this, but you can tweak everything from noise, smoothness, inertia, dynamic oscillations, to additional effects from game physics, or even override a game's FFB completely! You can even mess with the torque equalization!!! The list of tuning capabilities is crazy and impressive. 

What the new responsive mode did was just intensified the overall delivery of what the AF can deliver. What it doesn't do is add more torque. 

Oscillations ARE an issue with the high torque wheels. Are they a deal braker? No.... or at least if you don't drive with one hand on top of the wheel with your chair reclined and drive real slow blasting hip hop music. 2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif There are things in these wheels you may not like that you may not be able to tune out period, whereas with the AF you can. 

For example. You cannot modify the clarity or chattiness of the higher end torque wheels. With the AF, you can really change how certain forces and effects are delivered. With the Lenze specifically, the small detailed forces were rather muted, however still present and detailed, but smoother. 

Imagine that the FFB delivered looked like a sinewave. Imagine that with the AF, you can modify the frequency, how close the peaks are together, and how sharp or dull they can be. What you can't modify in the AF is how tall they are, and that's torque. 

More torque yields less detail though, right? 
No. That's bullshit, and don't let anyone convince you otherwise with "science". What is proven in theory, and which may be true if you paid enough attention in math class to verify it, is actually not felt in reality. The Lenze, which I tested at 19 Amps, did not suffer from ANY detail loss. Going over the high frequency curbs at Zolder produce crystal clear feedback. Nor did it suffer from being able to feel nuances of forces which slowly ramp up as you drive over big humped curbs at 2mph. 

But the AF features a 2000Hz super duper encoder/decoder, and the others don't, so why do they produce detail that is just as good as the AF's detail? 
I guess maybe you don't need big numbers to feel small bumps. I don't know. All I know is that the only difference between the ability in being able to feel detail is that with the AF you can tune that feel, and with the other wheels you can't. 

Whoah, whoah, whoah. If the AccuForce's tuning capabilities are so dope, why isn't that enough to make it a better wheel? 
Depends on what you understand from better. I had a more enjoyable and immersive experience with the higher torque wheel. In addition to that, we didn't spend any significant time fine tuning the feedback from the other wheels. It just worked. Out of the box. Like magic. With the AF, I had to get my degree in engineering first, figure out what all the options do, and start messing around until I dialed out a bunch of stuff I didn't like. 

As far as a user's experience is concerned, the fact that the Lenze just worked, delivered detail and offered much higher torque variation and as a result more immersive experience, made it a more enjoyable wheel than the AF. 

The AF's tuning capabilities did not increase the immersion factor of the simulation, but the added torque of the Lenze certainly did. Torque FTW! 

I'm not satisfied with your analysis on detail, please explain further... 
The AF is capable of delivering very chatty and high frequency details. With the Lenze, the details were much smoother and more muted. They were definitely not as jolting as in the AF. The kind of detail we're talking about is, being able to feel road seams, road texture, small bumps, and the ruble strips over curbs. The ability of the AF to relate that information and in a way where in the way they're being related can actually be customized, is simply not possible with the Lenze. However, that doesn't mean that those details weren't felt or didn't come through in the Lenze. Yes, that's a huge advantage for the AF, but at the end of the day, the other wheel showed that if you didn't have the advantage of being able to tune that detail, everything was still fine. 

The AF is also not as smooth as the Lenze. By smoothness I mean the subtlety of the way the small forces are delivered. The AF can be of course tutned to smooth out bumps and whatnot, but because of its limited torque range, even a little bit of smoothing soon starts to eliminate detail. 

So if you want the detail in AF, you can't have it as smooth as you would get it in the Lenze. That's all. Doesn't mean you can't have smooth detail in the AF, but it's just the nature of how different those wheels are. 

However, the fact that you CAN customize the detail of the AF, and be able to add so much more other effects, like bumps, engine RPM, make it immersive in its own way even though it can't deliver that high torque. 

Sooo, the AF is rated at 13Nm, and the Bodnar at 16Nm, and you said that Naid said that the Bodnar feels more like the Lenze which is 20Nm? 

...uhh, yeah. In fact, different motors may be rated the same torque and feel completely different, apparently. So I'll make it simple. Don't go by the numbers, but go by what you feel. 


What about safety? 
With the AF you can probably hurt yourself a little. 
With a wheel like an OSW, especially since it doesn't have any controls around oscillation, you can SERIOUSLY INJURE YOURSELF! Seriously, and that's not a joke. Just like in a race car, and another point for immersion, check! <-- that was a joke. 

Should I sell my AF and trade it for an OSW or a Bodnar 
Whoa, whoa, slow down there champ and let's revisit: 
AF is an $1800 package, while the other two are $4-5K delivered. 

Do the other wheels offer twice the performance for more than twice the price? I don't know if its twice the performance, but definitely more than one and half times the torque for sure. Torque, it turns out, makes a significant difference to the amount of immersion you get from the wheel. Just because you can tune and refine the hell out of the FFB in AccuForce, the added torque is significant enough to give a player a much more exciting and immersive experience. 

So in reality, if torque really is such a deciding factor for performance, then the AF delivers the great performance for its price with the added bonus of being able to tune it like no other wheel before. The other wheels deliver more torque, but for a significant price increase. So all wheels are good value, you just have to decide which is the right one for you. 

So are there really any losers in this? Absolutely not. 

Should you feel disappointed you got an AF instead of an OSW or Bodnar? 
I don't know, do you normally feel disappointed you didn't have to pay an extra $2-3,000? 
Do you bitch about owning a $200K Lamborghini instead of a $500K Ferrari? Poor you. 

I'm not, and mostly because I can't afford an OSW or a Bodnar, or a $15,000 motion simulation package form D-Box that makes my balls pack up and go inside of me when I crest the hill at the Skyline corner at Bathurst in a Lotus 79. ...and even if I could, my wife won't let me, because believe me, she's had it with my car shit. We all have one reason or another that limits our wants and forces us to instead satisfy our needs. 

The AF is enough. The others just give you MOAR, and you need to pay for it. 


But I could build an OSW for the price of an AF because shipping an AF to my country is assrape 
Unless you value tuning capability more than torque, then your choice is clear... and I'm jealous. As Naid said, it's not like Berney is running a charity here. He has a business to run, salaries to pay, and invested years of his life to bring something to market for those of us who can't afford a Bodnar and have a great experience. Is he wrong to charge you a premium... you selfish bastard who only throws stones at him every chance you get? Have some respect for the community and capitalism. Unlike communism, It fucking works! 


Are the OSW and Bodnar in a different league than the AF? 
Yes. The torque difference alone puts them in different leagues. So maybe, perhaps, this wasn't a fair comparison? Then in that case the AF is in a market segment all on its own. Unrivaled! 

What is the ideal wheel then? 
A 25Nm AccuForce with SimCommander which is FREE. Berney, it's time to make a wheel with a stronger motor. Do it!

...but, ...but 
The great thing about all of this, as Naid pointed out to me, if Bodnar didn't come to market, we wouldn't have had such a significant change in the landscape of SimWheel controllers so quickly. All of this is great stuff. We are living in the Golden Age of Sim Hardware. Rejoice, don't hate and insult each other, hug all the children you see on the street (they might be yours for all you know), and enjoy this revolution in SimRacing hardware! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, I know that one. Bedo put some good post on there on iracing.

 

"Are the OSW and Bodnar in a different league than the AF? 
Yes. The torque difference alone puts them in different leagues. So maybe, perhaps, this wasn't a fair comparison? Then in that case the AF is in a market segment all on its own. Unrivaled!"

 

Can someone over there wise him up and tell him that the Lenze OSw is rather the exception, but instead the Mige OSw is what the vast majority of sim racers interested in DD wheels are talking about?

Very strange making a comment like that.

There are huge threads about the Mige OSw there on iracing...seriously, he must have noticed them. So, he most likely knows what the guys there say about the AF - Mige comparison...still makes a comment like that...

 

Philip van Rensburg, aka Beano, even says he likes the small Mige more  than the Lenze. There's opposition about that though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, I know that one. Bedo put some good post on there on iracing.

 

"Are the OSW and Bodnar in a different league than the AF? 

Yes. The torque difference alone puts them in different leagues. So maybe, perhaps, this wasn't a fair comparison? Then in that case the AF is in a market segment all on its own. Unrivaled!"

 

Can someone over there wise him up and tell him that the Lenze OSw is rather the exception, but instead the Mige OSw is what the vast majority of sim racers interested in DD wheels are talking about?

Very strange making a comment like that.

There are huge threads about the Mige OSw there on iracing...seriously, he must have noticed them. So, he most likely knows what the guys there say about the AF - Mige comparison...still makes a comment like that...

 

Philip van Rensburg, aka Beano, even says he likes the small Mige more  than the Lenze. There's opposition about that though.

 

Does it really matter ?? It's all subjective and what one person likes, another may not.

 

I believe what he meant by that is, there's not a company offering a turn key solution in that market segment. Until a real company starts offering a full Mige solution, I don' consider it in "the market". Turn key means they are abiding by the Immersion technology patent and selling it as a package with the software. Anyone that sells you an OSW is side stepping that patent by having you get the software via another source. Let's see someone really compete with the AF by having to pay immersion for the right to use FFB technology. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites