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Why the need for so much torque ?

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Interesting to see the variety of responses. The way I see it, really depends on needs and budget.

If one is a casual racer I am sure they would be happy with a generic or consumer level wheel.

Those who are a bit more serious may want something like an accuforce which seems to be in the Goldilocks zone for pricing and value.

If you're a professional racing driver or a race team using collection of kit as a training tool I can't see why you wouldn't want the 1:1 experience and would spend any amount to get it as testing is so limited and gosh darn expensive nowadays. No motion, 1:1 feedback is what this group needs and I can see them splurging for the leo bodnar wheels (or osw if they're hands on and don't care for consumer level support/warranty). I think die hard simmers wanting the 1:1 would strangely fit into this group as well and spend any amount for 1:1 steering feedback.

The best wheel is the one that most fits your needs within your spending capability. Torque sensation depends on person. A person who drives formula 3 level or up as a profession probably wouldn't feel the same way about it

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Someone needs to take a pair of Vice Grips™ and clamp them on the brake booster and steer rack lines on @Darin's Camaro. ...and change out the wheels for some extra heavy, unforged "24"s (gotta max out that unsprung weight) while you're at it!

 

He's from LA. He should like the new wheels!  :mrgreen:

 

Extra points can be earned if you tint the windows a Compton shade of gray and fill the back with a half dozen 18" woofers and some nice, Phat (phat as in massive harmonic distortion) amplifiers. A little gold hanging from the mirror would be a nice touch too!  :ph34r:  

 

Hell... No... I have 18"s and that's plenty big..lol

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Some people just really want that 1:1 experience, and who is anyone to tell them they're wrong? Also, torque levels are relative. If you're in shape and you've conditioned the appropriate muscle groups, the torque levels will seem considerably less, obviously.

 

Having said that, the high end servos found in the OSW/Bodnar wheels also just feel better at any torque level, according to those who have used multiple direct-drive wheels. Smoother, more responsive, more detailed, less cogging, more natural, etc. But that shouldn't surprise anyone. The $300-$1500 servo motors should outperform the $70 stepper motor in the Accuforce, regardless of the Sim Commander wizardry.

 

The latter is what swayed me to the OSW, rather than extreme torque levels. Also, a small Mige OSW with a Sam Maxwell Momo custom comes in at a bit less than the Accuforce Pro. Easy choice, in my opinion.

 

Not saying it's wrong, I just think it's overkill. I think for the price, software support, warranty and turn key capability, the AccuForce is the way to go. I feel that I'm getting very close to a 1:1 experience with the AF and I didn't have to build it or rely on community coded freeware to get things to run properly. I think the DIY option is pretty cool and amazing that some guys within the community came up with it.These guys that are building kits are side stepping Immersion technology patents and may get shut down very soon.   I personally think it'd be more wise to invest in a product and company that goes by the rules and isn't at risk of being shut down and has a reputation for building quality products. 

 

The AF is a stepper but how do you know it's a $70 motor ? SimXperience has stated they had them custom built for their application. I'm not feeling any "cogging". 

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If we just take warranty Simxperience offer a 1 year limited warranty and consumer pay all shipping costs to manufacturer. It´s not super solid in that regard. You get a better warranty with Fanatecs, Thrustmasters or Logitech consumer wheels.

 

Pricewise the accuforce costs more while you can get better hardware for the same price with an OSW build. To me that make the OSW win the price category?

Plug and play yeah hopefully but if something breaks in it is it as easy to fix as an OSW wheel? 

 

As for stepping on patents do you have more info on that? 

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If we just take warranty Simxperience offer a 1 year limited warranty and consumer pay all shipping costs to manufacturer. It´s not super solid in that regard. You get a better warranty with Fanatecs, Thrustmasters or Logitech consumer wheels.

 

Pricewise the accuforce costs more while you can get better hardware for the same price with an OSW build. To me that make the OSW win the price category?

Plug and play yeah hopefully but if something breaks in it is it as easy to fix as an OSW wheel? 

 

As for stepping on patents do you have more info on that? 

Does that accounts for extras, like electronic enclosure box, quick release, comparable wheel button box with paddles and steering wheel, plus shipping from EU.

You can also subtract the price of SimCommander if you have SimVibe already.

Not questioning your statement by any means, just really want to see full price break down on complete Mige OSW to compare apples to apples.

Has anyone compared Mige wheel with AF, so far I have only seen comparison against Lenze, which is twice the price?

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I always thought us sim racers strive for realism, but obviously this isn't so for some based on the whole OSW vs AF debate.  Personally I just want a wheel to feel exactly or as close as possible to how the real car feels and for the settings to change automatically (or can be changed easily) depending on the car you are driving in the sim.

 

Here's two example scenarios:

  1. Justin Wilson buys an AF, tweaks the SC4 profile for the DW12 in iRacing to a point where he says it feels pretty much spot on to the real car and shares his settings with the community.
  2. A respected sim expert with no real world racing experience recommends an OSW with high torque FF settings for the DW12 in iRacing and the vast majority of sim racers agree that it feels fantastic and better than an AF.

I'd go with option 1 every time, if it could happen.

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It´s certainly possible. My small Mige setup is 1025 USD. then you have some 705$ for quick release, htpc case and rim plus solution for buttons on wheel if you want that and paddles. 

 

So you could even afford a sam maxwell custom wheel with quick release if you really don´t want any DIY. 

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I have to admit that i'm really fed up with the OSW / AF debate.  Too many people post saying one is better than the other, but i'm sceptical about any comparisons that have so far been made.  Most of the "mine is better than yours" is made by people that have only tried one type and even those that have tried both are far too quick to comment after only a few hours using one or other wheel.

 

I still say that torque is just one element in the equation and the main direct drive benefit is the accuracy and speed of response. This is common to all the direct drive wheels and in my opinion is at least 75% of the reason to buy direct drive.

 

To me one of the most important factors of any sim racing equipment is getting used to it and training your muscles and mind to use what you have... With pedals we take what we can and train ourselves to make the most of them.  Wheels are no different... using a wheel for several weeks will start to tell you if its good for you.

 

With the AccuForce i find I can respond to traction loss or a slide so much better than I could with the TX or CSW V2 and regardless of the amount of force or torque thats what I feel I have paid for.   I'm confident that every DD wheel offers this benefit.

 

In my opinion anyone serious about sim racing and with the money should buy a direct drive wheel if they can.  Which one does not really matter and each offers slightly different pros and cons.  The DIY (small midge) is the cheapest, The AF is a complete solution with warranty and the OSW (lenze) is the ultimate in torque.  They are all great and we should stop knocking any one option and just enjoy the new tech, because its a great leap forward.

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I'm one of these guys in this public discussion who has never used a dd wheel. It's understandable to me that people want to compare. Guys who spend $2000 bucks on just a wheel are obviously passionate about their hobby. I guess most of us are no millionaires and want the best bang for the buck.

I think I figured out one thing, to be able to properly judge this you have to have tried an AF, a Bodnar and an OSW and my gut feeling is that includes real race drivers...they would feel the difference between an AF and an OSW as well and get an opinion about it.

Cheers

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It´s certainly possible. My small Mige setup is 1025 USD. then you have some 705$ for quick release, htpc case and rim plus solution for buttons on wheel if you want that and paddles. 

 

So you could even afford a sam maxwell custom wheel with quick release if you really don´t want any DIY. 

That sounds great, exact break down would be terrific, as shipping alone can skyrocket over 100 EURO for heavy items, but balk park figure is fine too.

Has anyone had a chance to compare Mige OSW with AF, btw, is it really worth the hassle of going DIY route?

 

Is Mige OSW/AF is a real point of diminishing return and investing more you just get a minuscule  fraction of improvement in return?

 

It's really start sounding like hi-fi, when you can dump hundreds of dollars into power cable for perceived improvement in sound quality. Not saying that extra torque is "perceived" but does everyone really need "all of it", the video of OSW posted by Darin with the guy huffing and puffing, working on his hernia, looks ridiculous.

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Thirsty , do you received your OSW? And what is the price of this wheel?

 

Hey Krassi, it's on the way down here.

I haven't checked out how much import will cost me exactly. Guess all together it will be approx. AU$4200. On top of that the wheel plate with the Q1R quick release will be about AU$2200.

 

The AF would cost me roughly AU$3000.

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I have to admit that i'm really fed up with the OSW / AF debate.  Too many people post saying one is better than the other, but i'm sceptical about any comparisons that have so far been made.  Most of the "mine is better than yours" is made by people that have only tried one type and even those that have tried both are far too quick to comment after only a few hours using one or other wheel.

 

I still say that torque is just one element in the equation and the main direct drive benefit is the accuracy and speed of response. This is common to all the direct drive wheels and in my opinion is at least 75% of the reason to buy direct drive.

 

To me one of the most important factors of any sim racing equipment is getting used to it and training your muscles and mind to use what you have... With pedals we take what we can and train ourselves to make the most of them.  Wheels are no different... using a wheel for several weeks will start to tell you if its good for you.

 

With the AccuForce i find I can respond to traction loss or a slide so much better than I could with the TX or CSW V2 and regardless of the amount of force or torque thats what I feel I have paid for.   I'm confident that every DD wheel offers this benefit.

 

In my opinion anyone serious about sim racing and with the money should buy a direct drive wheel if they can.  Which one does not really matter and each offers slightly different pros and cons.  The DIY (small midge) is the cheapest, The AF is a complete solution with warranty and the OSW (lenze) is the ultimate in torque.  They are all great and we should stop knocking any one option and just enjoy the new tech, because its a great leap forward.

I haven´t heard anyone suggesting the TX or CSW V2 is on the level of the Accuforce. But then again if you can feel the difference between two belt driven systems like the TX and the CSW V2 why would you not be able to feel a difference between various direct drive wheels :)

 

One thing I wonder since you also have the HE sim Ultimates how are you coping :D. How tough is the combo of the accuforce and these pedals.

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That sounds great, exact break down would be terrific, as shipping alone can skyrocket over 100 EURO for heavy items, but balk park figure is fine too.

Has anyone had a chance to compare Mige OSW with AF, btw, is it really worth the hassle of going DIY route?

 

Is Mige OSW/AF is a real point of diminishing return and investing more you just get a minuscule  fraction of improvement in return?

 

It's really start sounding like hi-fi, when you can dump hundreds of dollars into power cable for perceived improvement in sound quality. Not saying that extra torque is "perceived" but does everyone really need "all of it", the video of OSW posted by Darin with the guy huffing and puffing, working on his hernia, looks ridiculous.

 

There are plenty of guys down here in Oz who have tried both. The result is in line with what Barry came up with in his review. The difference between the Mige and the Lenze is apparently rather marginal by comparison.

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That sounds great, exact break down would be terrific, as shipping alone can skyrocket over 100 EURO for heavy items, but balk park figure is fine too.

Has anyone had a chance to compare Mige OSW with AF, btw, is it really worth the hassle of going DIY route?

 

Is Mige OSW/AF is a real point of diminishing return and investing more you just get a minuscule  fraction of improvement in return?

 

It's really start sounding like hi-fi, when you can dump hundreds of dollars into power cable for perceived improvement in sound quality. Not saying that extra torque is "perceived" but does everyone really need "all of it", the video of OSW posted by Darin with the guy huffing and puffing, working on his hernia, looks ridiculous.

 

Here is the parts I have ordered. 

Pre-assembled MIGe Power & Feedback cables

All-in-one board (Sim-ple for IONI)

IONI Pro

Ascher Racing MIGe mount

Holger's OSW Adapter with COM-B 22x32

E-Stop

Enable Switch

Ferrite Cores

600W Switching PSU

 

As for diminishing return well if you want something better you want a lenze motor or something then it´s twice the cost... Still I am sure the difference is quite a bit more then various power cables. 

I am fine not having the absolutely latest and greatest. I have my beloved Audeze LCD-2 I don´t need a Stax SR-009 though I am sure I would love it :). But I wouldn´t advocate that nobody ever needs anything better then a LCD-2 though they do allow me to be quite ignorant about better options.

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I bet money I can make the AF do the same thing

Maybe the movement would match but forces wouldn't be replicated the same. Guess it depends how you define "the same thing." If you're saying the wheel could replicate the same forces, I would take that bet.

Anyone would be happy to buy any of the wheels mentioned in that comparison video by Barry, they're all fantastic!

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I just watched Barry`s review of the 3 wheels - complete this time. Last time I checked only highlights. OSW completely kicks AF. Bodnar steps back a bit and for the price difference is solid second and cant compete OSW.Bary and other guys helping him are very diplomatic,but was very clear that they see AF like first from bottom to top;) I am dissapointed ,because I expected more from SImX.They have a lot experience in the FFB department.

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I agree with this last post but hope the way he worded it doesn't ruffle too many feathers here. Paul gt, I sit back occasionally and think about the time people spend arguing about wheels in other forums and wonder...hmm..wouldn't they all rather be out racing, or I guess sim racing?

Does it really matter anyway, just get the bloody wheel that fits your needs most which you can afford.

Or don't, just don't go on the iracing forum and get at everyone's throat if you don't like what they say.

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