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Episode 92: GT5 Full Review Part 1

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Play the game and you will find a new category. Almost all reviews praise its driving model for a reason.

Going backwards to a console is not my intention. Obviously the graphics are brilliant on this game, but I see no reason for me to do that, when I have access to the sims already available as well as what is coming in the near future. :)

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Great review so far guys, your thoughts are very similar to mine but I would have been a little more critical about the flaws.

One part I'm not too happy about is the early Top Sim Car scores. The scores you have given are not very fair as you only considered the cars from one point of view in the game. You may not have realised by the time you scored the cars that they have different physics in online and offline and damage is completely different online. If you had scored the cars on damage based on online your score would have no doubt been higher likewise if you spent more time testing the cars online your physics scores may have been different.

GT5 is unique in this aspect, I don't know why they have different engines but they do. So how do you score it? 50:50? Or do you value and score online higher than offline? It makes it hard because different people value one more than the other, to me sim racing is about racing real people online so the online physics and damage are more crucial to me but you need to play offline to get cars. Either way your scores are not fair or accurate especially considering the other titles that fill the leaderboard. I think if you gave the scoring a little more thought and considered the crucial online physics and damage your scores would be different.

Offline - since you have not progressed far into the game tyre physics haven't been fully revealed yet = unfair lower score.

Online - after the 3 patches damage is far better and mechanical damage has now been added = online damage will score higher. Different physics engine, tyre physics are more realistic, fuel load physics are unrealistic (you start with a 100 litre load with a unreal centre of gravity), cars are much more difficult to roll.

If we need to spend a year "unlocking" physics.. (thats a new one).. Then they don't deserve to be scored higher.. We'll re-visit the damage after we run the cars online..

Why do you think damage and physics unlock at different levels ? Sony put that myth to rest.. Do you have word from Sony or Polyphony that they do unlock at different levels?

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Skimming over the gtplanet forums I see nothing that backs up a different tire physic\damage system at a higher level. The whole damage model does nothing but look un-natural and is not realistic and probably used up cpu where is could have been used in other areas.

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Change your CSPs brake up to the next post and you may say different :)

You are right. That made a bigger difference than I would have thought just by looking at it. I'm glad I didn't add the longer medal bar.

I wonder why CSP doesn't come installed that way. May be it has something to do you are more likely to damage the load cell. I've read a few CSP owners claimed they had to replace their load cell and you can order replacements from Fanatec.

I race GT5 without a Buttkicker today and say it feels so empty without it.

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There are lots of people complaining about the G27 pedals.

I´ve seen brakes on full lock just by touching the pedal myself.

It seems, though, it´s just a calibration process.

Looks like when you first use the pedals, the game still hasn´t detected the full extension of the "axis" in wich they work, and then they behave just like a gamepad button.

Usually, when I start the game up, I press the three pedals to the bottom during a loading screen or something.

When I get to the track, they´re working just fine.

Again, I´m not sure about this process, but it works with my gear just fine. :mrgreen:

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If we need to spend a year "unlocking" physics.. (thats a new one).. Then they don't deserve to be scored higher.. We'll re-visit the damage after we run the cars online..

Why do you think damage and physics unlock at different levels ? Sony put that myth to rest.. Do you have word from Sony or Polyphony that they do unlock at different levels?

I don't know if unlocking is the right word to describe what PD have decided to implement in A-spec. The early events don't implement tyre physics modelling at the same level the more advanced events do. Sure you need to unlock these events by getting licences and increasing your level but no matter what level you attain the events don't change. I don't agree with what PD has done as the way they have implemented progression means that you need to earn a more realistic experience. In the early events there seems to be little to no tyre wear/heat modelling, we have seen the same thing in previous GT titles, as you progress events with more realistic tyre wear/heat modelling become available to compete in. This is just another case of PD sticking to what they have always done and ignoring the better approach others have taken.

Online however is different again, tyre physics is more pronounced online at any level, I'm not sure if this is tied to the damage settings or any other setting I choose though.

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Greetings,

I`d like to have a more precise statement about using a F430 with GT5 if possible please!

My situation:

I am gonna buy my first wheel ever and looking forward to Dirt 3, Shift 2 and TDU 2 most likely as PC version instead of PS3.

Since the Driving Force GT is out of stock in germany everywhere and its price exploded from 80€ during summer to 150€ arround GT5s release my focus is on a F430 now (95€). Every other wheel is above my budget (expect Fanatec - Porsche 911 Carrera Wheel probably).

So in this show it was mentioned a F430 has full functionalities when it comes down to driving, but has weak force feedback which wouldn`t stop me to buy one. But I would like to know for sure steering and pedals work "perfect" at least in a way you expect it from this wheel.

Is there no deadzone like pointed out in the general F430 review?

It`s kinda surprising how poor the Logitech series performs with GT5, huge deadzone, almost broken brake.

That sounds like a F430 is more precise to me!

As far i know a PS3 controller will work simultaneous with a wheel (at least a keyboard and controller does at the same time). No working X and circle button won`t be a hurdle from my point of view.

Whats about rotation? I think 270 degrees is very unique for wheel controller, which preset wheel do you choose to run a F430? (T500RS settings?) If the choosen preset hasn`t 270 degree I guess it messes up steering a bit.

I couldn`t find any information about fuctionalitie of a F430 with GT5, so I am even more happy i finally got an answer in this episode it "works".

I`d love to read more comments from you about this wheel with GT5.

Thanks in advance and greetings from germany,

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If we need to spend a year "unlocking" physics.. (thats a new one).. Then they don't deserve to be scored higher.. We'll re-visit the damage after we run the cars online..

Why do you think damage and physics unlock at different levels ? Sony put that myth to rest.. Do you have word from Sony or Polyphony that they do unlock at different levels?

I think my second post is still waiting to be reviewed and I can't access it to edit this comment in. Correct me if I am wrong, Top Sim Cars reviews the individual car not the game, in other games the car might be consistent in all aspects of the game, a sore point of GT5 is that it lacks consistency. If certain features are not accessible at first it is a game fault not the reviewed cars fault and the same can be said if the car handles differently online vs offline. Perhaps GT5 doesn't deserve a place in Top Sim Cars because of this or if it does perhaps an overall score based on how the car behaves in all aspects of the game combined. No doubt the game vs simulator argument comes up here, PD have chosen their roots of gameplay over simulation.

Another factor that you have no doubt considered is the default settings being unrealistic (0 camber, 0 toe-in etc.) with no ability to set them to even the factory spec without modifying the car, just this means there is an element of achievement required to "unlock" realistic vehicle handling due to the requirement of credits to modify the vehicle. Lets say you reviewed a classic car, no doubt it would have to lose points for having performance brakes fitted as default and traction control fitted and on as default but it would be an unfair review overall if you failed to also test it with traction control off and then it would be unfair if you did turn traction control off and only judged the car with the unrealistic default setting of F5/R5 brake bias.

Only you guys can decide if GT5 cars deserve a place in Top Sim Cars. I'm just saying that if you do score them the car should be scored on it's own merits and flaws and as it will behave differently based on what you do to it and based on where you use it it the game you need to be able to test it in all these areas and test it thoroughly (have enough credits to access every option available for that model) and you need to decide on a method to score the cars considering that when you begin in A-spec certain events may not have tyre wear and online handling is different again.

Like you said the game is deep, I believe you made the correct decision to not review the game entirely until you had time to test the game thoroughly, I'm just saying this needs to also be applied to Top Sim Cars if you think GT5 cars are worthy of inclusion. The game is deep, because of this the testing of the cars needs to be thorough, testing the cars in just one or two areas in the game is not going to do them justice and the score might be too high or low as a result.

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Greetings,

I`d like to have a more precise statement about using a F430 with GT5 if possible please!

As a former F430 user (I really cannot justify spending more than 150 euros for a wheel, considering that I'm an all-round gamer and can't spend my whole wages on racing games only :P), I would firmly advise against it. The wheel isn't "bad", but I wouldn't consider it even near good. Moving to the Driving Force GT I simply noticed that I was missing a LOT in the experience due to the weak force feedback of the thrustmaster. Strong force feedback means a lot more precision in avoiding oversteer, and in managing weight transfer, not to mention a much better precision in steering overall, as the resistance the wheel offers prevents you to overcompensate.

After a bit of adapting (and a lot of pain in my hands and wirsts lol, seriously, the DFGT on FF set to 7 will literally give your hands a rough beating at first), my lap times increased considerably compared to the old wheel. A wheel with better FF simply gives you so much more information about the condition of your car, and the DFGT does an awesome job with that.

In any case, I had trouble finding the DFGT myself (I finally found a dusty one under a bunch of other crappier wheels in a mall lol), I even called Logitech, and they told me that they are in the process of restocking as many shops as they can, and the availability should improve through this week and the next.

Personally, if I were you, I'd wait for the DFGT, I've rarely been happier with a gaming-related purchase. Best bang for buck for sure and a weheel is a long term investment. Better to wait a couple weeks and get the best you can afford than just wasting money on an average one.

I feel a bit bad advising against a thrustmaster peripheral, considering how much I used to love them when flight simulators were still a big thing *sighs*, but unfortunately their quality seems to have taken a dive together with the flight sim genre itself. Hopefully they'll redeem themsleves with the new official GT5 wheel, even if it'll be way over my budget.

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Another factor that you have no doubt considered is the default settings being unrealistic (0 camber, 0 toe-in etc.) with no ability to set them to even the factory spec without modifying the car, just this means there is an element of achievement required to "unlock" realistic vehicle handling due to the requirement of credits to modify the vehicle. Lets say you reviewed a classic car, no doubt it would have to lose points for having performance brakes fitted as default and traction control fitted and on as default but it would be an unfair review overall if you failed to also test it with traction control off and then it would be unfair if you did turn traction control off and only judged the car with the unrealistic default setting of F5/R5 brake bias.

The default setting (of camber, toe, ride height) shouldn't be considered unrealistic just because the menu has a 0 value figure, the cars should have been modelled with the correct values set into the suspension model, the car should handle as it's real life counterpart should with the factory game settings. Just because that menu shows 0 it just means it can't be adjusted as most real world street cars aren't. Race cars are a different matter because they come with fully adjustable parts in most cases, and should have an adjustable value without any modification.

The fact brake bias can be adjusted in any non-race car without modification is totally unrealistic. and is just one of many stupid decisions PD made for this game. Un-lockable tyre physics? lol what does this achieve?

If there are to be any more GT5 top sim cars to be put forward they must be reviewed in a on-line situation.

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Plenty of standard real world cars can have slight toe and camber adjustments made, what do you think a wheel alignment does? I can't think of a car I have owned that wasn't able to have a few degrees adjustment in the front end.

Likewise brake bias is adjustable on many cars to some degree. I will agree that every car being fitted with performance brakes, ABS and driving assists as standard is absolutely unrealistic and annoying.

Like I said earlier it is not correct to say that tyre physics are unlockable. Progression in GT isn't new, you start with races with terrible AI, only a few laps and no tyre wear. Later in the game races get longer, AI improves and tyre wear becomes a factor. This is the type of game play that has been a feature of GT's and unfortunately GT5 has stuck to it's roots in this aspect.

Online is where you get the most realistic sim racing experience but for some reason PD has decided to have different physics online, which is better seems to depend on who you ask.

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There really is no difference in physics between offline and online. The only difference is that damage can be set to mechanical online and tire wear/fuel consumption that differs for some race. For the rest everything is the same. The same car will perform the same online and offline.

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What?

I don't know what to say, we must be playing a different game. What I do know is plenty of people like me feel that online physics are different and it isn't just the fact that it is almost impossible to roll a car online but this alone displays a difference in physics.

And then there is this

IMG_0136-1.jpg

I know the image doesn't prove anything but combined with the fact that I notice a difference, the majority of people commenting on it notice a difference and the fact that cars don't roll like they do offline it makes me shake my head in disbelief when somebody says flat out there is no difference and claims what the rest of us are feeling doesn't exist.

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"Online racing engine" simply refers to the netcode and network architecture. Watanabe Sou is, in fact, a senior network engineer at Polyphony (he even held lectures on the subject at the Institute of Electronics, Information and Communication Engineers in Tokyo). His job has nothing to do with physics (besides the physics involved in creating a world-wide gaming network).

Personal impression, or the impression of the (perceived, since I don't see that majority at all) majority, hardly make a fact. In a physics engine as complex as GT5's there can be hundreds of variables that make a difference in seemingly similar conditions.

The fact that they may have imposed an artificial limitation on rollovers online (which might actually be a good thing considering the race-ruining online mishaps with rollovers in Forza 3 when a rollover is combined with even slight lag), doesn't mean that the physics engine itself is different.

In fact it's just as easy to go on two wheels as it is offline (I just tested), the car just won't get past a certain angle, but up to that angle, it's exactly the same ease to imbalance it.

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The only real alignment adjustment on your everyday car is toe via steering arms ball joints.

In 75% of your everyday driver car camber is set/fixed by the manufacturer this can only be adjusted with modification i.e camber bolts or special wishbones, tie rods etc and is only necessary after ride height modification, the same goes for castor. The only cars where this case maybe different is high performance sports cars where those special parts come fitted as standard.

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@ Abriel

I don't know if I am allowed to link to it but there is a long thread discussing this on GTP. It has been tested at length, tyres and fuel loads have been run through the cycle so these have been eliminated, the consensus is physics are different online no matter how much fuel you have or how worn your tyres are and that the difference varies depending on the vehicle and track selected. There is no point debating it here, you don't agree or haven't experienced it, your experience doesn't invalidate the experiences of myself or the people posting in that thread.

@ starfox550

Toe is adjusted at the tie rod end, the ball joint is fixed.

I haven't owned every car ever made and I'm a panel beater not a suspension specialist so I can't argue your 75% figure but I've had slight camber adjustments performed on a few of my cars.

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@ Abriel

I don't know if I am allowed to link to it but there is a long thread discussing this on GTP. It has been tested at length, tyres and fuel loads have been run through the cycle so these have been eliminated, the consensus is physics are different online no matter how much fuel you have or how worn your tyres are and that the difference varies depending on the vehicle and track selected. There is no point debating it here, you don't agree or haven't experienced it, your experience doesn't invalidate the experiences of myself or the people posting in that thread.

6 pages on GTP hardly factor as a "long thread" (especially considering the GTP attitude of making a big deal over everything, real or perceived). Also, there's no "consensus" since there are many in that thread itself that say that the physics are the same, and many that say that they're different base their argument basically on the "you can't rollover" argument (which really means little knowledge about game physics engine since that kind of effect doesn't need a different engine, but a simple added variable, two actually), or even just the thing in the credits (and they didn't even bothered to research on who those people are).

Do a race offline that includes tire wear and fuel consumption (like the endurances) and the car will behave exactly the same way as online, short of rollovers. Big deal.

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Did you read the whole thread? The objectors stopped when people started testing it methodically.

Actually there are objections even in the last page. So yeah.I read the whole thread, and besides the fact that some physical interactions have to be negotiated with the server, and server latency may influence response, there's absolutely no evidence anywhere.

Which in the end doesn't stray one bit from the usual conspiracy theorist attitude of many on GTplanet.

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I believe you said in Part 1 that you would show which budget wheels will work with GT5.

Well I own the Thrustmaster RGT FFB Pro and I know that there is only limited support for PS3 games. After lots (!) of research I finally heard from one site that it actually is recognized in GT5 but behaves oddly so you cannot really use it. I would love to see a confirmation. And maybe a patch will help with this in the future ;)

Also I thought about getting a more mobile Logitech Driving Force Wireless that I could take to a friends place without much fuss. Maybe a few words about how well this one performs with GT5 would be nice on Part 2 of your review.

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You are right. That made a bigger difference than I would have thought just by looking at it. I'm glad I didn't add the longer medal bar.

I wonder why CSP doesn't come installed that way. May be it has something to do you are more likely to damage the load cell. I've read a few CSP owners claimed they had to replace their load cell and you can order replacements from Fanatec.

After some time running Gt5 with the brakes at the second hole I found out the brakes were too stiff for my liking especially running Grand Valley Speedway 60 laps. I'd even turn the brake knob all the way to the right. After doing this I still preferred the nixim mod with GT5.

I'm thankful I bought the Tuning Kit now as I set it back to the very bottom hole then used the 30mm brake bar. Now it feels just right. :)

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Hello everybody.

New to PS3 and have a BIG question please. I bought the GT5 and am trying to use my thrustmaster F430 wheel ( yes I know it doesn't too well, but that will have to do for now) How is the tweak to use this wheel with PS3 and in particular with GT5, I thought it was plug and play. Do I need to donwload/update extra settings? It is kind of compicated to connect to the web. The only wheels that are in the game are the logitech ones. Can somebody help please???????

Thanks

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Thanks for the review, guys! I won't say anything yet, being how I just bought myself the game today for Xmas... Being the good person that I am, I'm gonna wait until Xmas to open it, too (yes, I'm patient, lol).

I'll share my thoughts then. :)

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It was mentioned in the Full Review that the Logitech Pro Force would not work well because of the large dead zone in the steering. I recieved and downloaded GT5 { 1 hour 5 minutes} last night , and much to my surprise, the Pro Force wheel worked fine with no adjustments having to be made. The pedals were not super sensitive as stated either. This is good and bad news as I was about to dump $500.00 on Club Sport pedals and GT2 wheel. I may hold off for now as that will buy a new set of race tires this spring for my 1:1 SCCA CRX this coming season.

Great work otherwise with the review.

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