AccuForce Wheel Arrives

[UNKLE 1,429]

That video cracked me up, I would never buy anything on ebay and put it on my car.

[Gunstar 615]

barry is looking pretty ripped lately.... probably don't know his own strength...I wouldn't mess with him.

Hahahahaha!!

[zim2323 9]

I'm contemplating whether or not to get the Accuforce.  My concern at this point is with joystick ordering.  I am mainly still running rF1 based sims for stockcar/oval racing, and I don't see anything in the near future viable for league racing in the current crop of sim's.

 

I realize this doesn't affect most with the newer sims allowing for more controllers.  However, with a growing USB device dependency as sim cockpits become more complex, this may become a growing issue.

 

That said, the older ISI rF1 based sims (GSC, ASRX, etc) do not get the updated (Steam) rF1 codebase to recognize more than 3 controllers.   This is the problem.  Windows organizes USB HID devices (mainly game controllers) in order of their 4-digit Vendor ID, from A-Z, 0-9.  Several products from the same vendor secondarily use the Product ID for additional ordering.  The Advanded Settings in Game Controller options does not work for USB HID devices, only older game controllers using the older joystick API.  In the Accuforce wheel's case, the Simxperience Vendor ID sits more towards the Z,9 range and always gets put last in the ordering.  This is a problem for me with a wheel, separate usb pedals, usb shifter, and usb button box.  This means the AF will end up last in order (shifter,pedals,button box,wheel), and the AF would never been recognized.

 

I have attempted using vJoy and UJR, but have found rather painful inconsistencies in the software that cause inputs to be lost for fractions of a second.  It caused me to wreck at a Bristol event on the banked straight with older tires.  In my case, I had the shifter on vJoy and I heard it pop in and out of 4th gear quickly.  It was enough to pop the rear tires loose and send me spinning.   That just tells me that while those products "work", they are not consistent, and I'm more worried about induced input lag on the wheel and pedals by routing them through those device.  Additionally, if the AF gets put last and you would have to use vJoy/UJR, you would lose FF control on any level because those products have no way of sending response back to the vJoy axis.

 

One of the guys I race with has an AF now and we spent about 2 hours going through all the possible options.  He has a similar setup to mine:  wheel, pedals, gated shifter, sequential shifter, button box.  No matter what, the AF always came last.  This meant that he had to make sure he only had 3 devices plugged in.  In general, the real loss is the button box.  I've called and talked to one of the guys at AF and explained the situation to him.  He's going to see what can be done, but honestly, I'm not sure anything can.  Who gives/assigns the Vendor ID?  Is it something they are given by Microsoft during driver signing/approval?  In theory, the fix would be a utility for AF owners to change their Vendor ID to something like 0000.  This would force the AF first.  This is probably easier said than done though considering that the Vendor/Product ID's are written into the firmware of the device and re-read every time Windows boots.  AF would have to allow us to rewrite the USB device firmware.  This could possibly affect future driver and firmware updates.

 

This is the only thing preventing me from ordering at this time.  Has anybody found a different workaround to this?

 

Thanks,

Chris

[Avenga76 835]

Hi Chris

Your assessment of how windows assigns the controller order possibly incorrect.

 

I have an Accuforce and I play a lot of GSC. I have 8 controller on my rig (Accuforce, DSD pedals, DSD handbrake, DSD shifter, 2 DSD button boxes, CSS SQ shifter, DSD mirco 32 button controller in my F1 wheel)

 

I set anything that has an axis to controller 1-3 so they are directly supported by GSC (Wheel, pedals and handbrake in that order)

 

I use xpadder to map the rest to buttons as they are all just button controllers.

 

I control my USB order by using a USB hub that has a power switch on each USB port.

 

I turn my devices on in a set order (Wheel first, then pedals, handbrake, DSD Shifter and so on)

 

This means in the windows control panel they will always show up on the same order.

 

I have never once had any controller issues using this method.

 

The Accuforce also has some expansion ports to help with controller creep

 

They allow you to plug you pedals directly in to the back of the base, you would have to do some wiring yourself but it can be done.

 

If I don't use my USB startup procedure then the controller order seems pretty random every time I restart my computer. It seems to be a first come first served basis.

 

If you controllers do show up in the wrong order, go to control panel then "Devices and Printers" then right click on the controller then click remove device. If you then plug in the controller again it will have moved to the bottom of the list. 

 

You can check the controller order by right clicking on one of the devices and going to controller properties. The order they are listed in there will be what order they show up in rFactor1 and GSC.

 

Let me know if this works for you and feel free to give me a PM or anything if you need some more help.

 

Once you get the hang of how to manipulate the order then it just becomes part of your start up procedure (Which for me is pretty long because I have 8 controllers, AF, GS-4, gauges and dashboards and DIY motion)

 

Here is the USB hubs I use

 

 

And here is a picture of the Accuforce pedal expansion port 

 

[zim2323 9]

Thanks for the info Avenga.  I have some questions I've put in red below.  My guess with your controller order being random is due to the fact that the majority of your controllers either are direct DSD board devices, or probably use a DSD controller anyways.  That would mean same Vendor ID and perhaps the Product ID doesn't account for secondary order as I thought.  Perhaps it just seemed to be that way in my case.  I think the root problem is different for each individual and the components they are using.

 

I'll try your startup order and let you know what I find.  I'm also working with a developer to see if he can develop an application to "trick" windows into reordering joysticks by masking the Vendor ID so we can put it in the order we want directly.  No clue if this is possible yet, but we're going to start working on it next week.  That would mean you wouldn't have to power on devices in a particular order anymore.

 

Appreciate the help.  I'll also pass along this conversation to the person with the AF so he knows what to do.

 

Thanks again!

 

 

 

"Your assessment of how windows assigns the controller order possibly incorrect."

I know for a fact that this is how Windows orders the controllers on Windows boot.  You can use USBdview by NirSoft to see those Vendor and Product ID's and match them up with the order the controllers are in after a fresh boot.  I didn't believe it either until I did this myself.  The link below is where I started researching and it pretty much spells it out.

http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/breaking-the-3-controller-barrier.94084/

 

 

"I set anything that has an axis to controller 1-3 so they are directly supported by GSC (Wheel, pedals and handbrake in that order)"

How do you "set anything that has an axis to controller 1-3"?  Do you mean by turning these devices on 1-by-1?

 

 

"I use xpadder to map the rest to buttons as they are all just button controllers."

I have Xpadder as well.  For now, my Thrustmaster wheel and shifter come first, then the ECCI pedals, but I have to manually configure axis sensitivity in the INI file since you can only configure controller 1 and 2 in game.  I map my button box using Xpadder.  A typical keyboard only has 110 keys on average.  With 2 button boxes and another 32 buttons on your F1 controller, how do you map all those buttons?  I don't have that problem yet, just curious though.  I mapped all the functions to keyboard and then used Xpadder to assign those keys to the button box buttons.

[zim2323 9]

FYI...

 

I've ordered a USB hub with individual power switches for each port like you have.  This will get me started in the right direction it seems.  Would be awesome to have a "SMART" usb hub like this where you can program it to turn on ports in a certain order with a specified delay, or wait until the previous port was online in order to automate this for system boot.

 

I want to build simulator cockpits for a local business and I'm not sure they would be keen to go through this startup process every morning.

[Avenga76 835]

I'll try your startup order and let you know what I find.  I'm also working with a developer to see if he can develop an application to "trick" windows into reordering joysticks by masking the Vendor ID so we can put it in the order we want directly.  No clue if this is possible yet, but we're going to start working on it next week.  That would mean you wouldn't have to power on devices in a particular order anymore.

 

That could cause more problems unless you only mask during boot because some game rely on the PID/VID (See my Dirt Rally Accuforce fix as a good example of this http://www.isrtv.com/forums/topic/17665-accuforce-and-non-supported-wheel-fix/)

 

"Your assessment of how windows assigns the controller order possibly incorrect."

I know for a fact that this is how Windows orders the controllers on Windows boot.  You can use USBdview by NirSoft to see those Vendor and Product ID's and match them up with the order the controllers are in after a fresh boot.  I didn't believe it either until I did this myself.  The link below is where I started researching and it pretty much spells it out.

http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/breaking-the-3-controller-barrier.94084/

 

 

 

This might be the way it is designed to work but this is Microsoft we are talking about. It doesn't work that way in practices. I know because I have had this random ordering with my G27, Fanatec CSW CSP CSS AF and all my DSD stuff.

 

I did a little test to prove my point. First was a fresh reboot, next was starting up everything in the order I want. Next was a reboot after that. If that windows ordering was truly the case then you would expect the fresh reboot to be the same as the first reboot but it wasn't.

 

To simplify this I chose 4 devices with different Vendor ID's. My DSD Pedals, Accuforce, Fanatec USB shifter adapter (CSS SQ) and DSD Sequential shifter.

 

The PID's and VID's are

 

Accuforce VID 1FC9 PID 804C

 

Fanatec CSS shifter VID 0EB7 PID 1A92

 

JoyWarrior A8-8 DSD shifter VID 07C0 PID 1104

 

DSD pedals VID 04D8 PID 1CB0

 

So here are my results.

 

First test: Fresh reboot, all my controllers plugged in and turned on. The order was DSD pedals, CSS, DSD Shifter then Accuforce.

 

 

The order in VID/PID was 

 

VID 04D8 PID 1CB0

VID 0EB7 PID 1A92

VID 07C0 PID 1104

VID 1FC9 PID 804C

 

My next test was to control the order by switching them on in the correct order (Note sometimes you need to remove them from the devices control panel to get them in the right order) I wanted the order to be, Accuforce, DSD pedals, CSS then DSD shifter

 

 

The order of the VID PID was

 

VID 1FC9 PID 804C

VID 04D8 PID 1CB0

VID 0EB7 PID 1A92

VID 07C0 PID 1104

 

After that I did a reboot with everything plugged in to see if it keep my new order or to see if it reverted back to my old fresh boot order. Well, microsoft is fickle at best and the order came out nothing like either my first fresh boot or my controlled boot.

 

After this reboot the order was DSD pedals, CSS, Accuforce then DSD shifter 

 

 

The VID PID order was

 

VID 04D8 PID 1CB0

VID 0EB7 PID 1A92

VID 1FC9 PID 804C

VID 07C0 PID 1104

 

So from this I can only assume that something else is going on during the boot up. What you say might be true if all the devices are plugged in to the same hub but it is not what I have ever experienced, but maybe windows might process each hub in a different order, like rank them by PID/VID per hub before moving on to the next hub or maybe some devices might take longer to connect so they are bumped down the list. I don't really know how it orders them or if it even tries to. All I know is that don't always show up in the same order for me. So if there is this ordering system that you say there is then it is not working very well (I am not saying it doesn't exist, just that if it does then Microsoft has done a terrible job of coding it because my controllers are never in the same order after a reboot, they are always somewhat random)

 

I have been running a lot of controllers for a long time and GSC is my main sim.

 

The order that they show up in the game controllers is the order that GSC will see them.

 

I had a read of that page. I am thinking that he just made the assumption on how the USB ordering And couldn't figure out how to manipulate the order of the controllers so that you can have your controllers with axis at the start of the order.

 

I think the way he is doing it is really bad, using something like Vjoy will add latency and complexity to your steering and pedals that you just don't want. It is okay using Xpadder for buttons because they aren't has time critical or as accurate as pedals or steering.

 

Back in the day when I first hit this limit I read tons of pages like this with crazy ways of trying to re-write USB ID's and use emulation software but nobody seemed to actually stop and think about how they can manipulate to order naturally.

 

I hope you can see by these screenshots that it is easy to control the order of you controller by using a USB hub with switches and/or removing them from the control panel and connecting them in the correct order.

 

I have been doing using this method for a long time now and I know it works.

 

 

"I set anything that has an axis to controller 1-3 so they are directly supported by GSC (Wheel, pedals and handbrake in that order)"

How do you "set anything that has an axis to controller 1-3"?  Do you mean by turning these devices on 1-by-1?

 

Yes. I turn on my wheel, wait for it to be recognised, then turn on my pedals and wait, then turn on my hand brake. After that I turn the rest on in order. If I do that then everything is perfect.  

 

"I use xpadder to map the rest to buttons as they are all just button controllers."

I have Xpadder as well.  For now, my Thrustmaster wheel and shifter come first, then the ECCI pedals, but I have to manually configure axis sensitivity in the INI file since you can only configure controller 1 and 2 in game.  I map my button box using Xpadder.  A typical keyboard only has 110 keys on average.  With 2 button boxes and another 32 buttons on your F1 controller, how do you map all those buttons?  I don't have that problem yet, just curious though.  I mapped all the functions to keyboard and then used Xpadder to assign those keys to the button box buttons.

 

 

I am still pretty good for the 110 key limit. I have 20 buttons on my right button box, 26 buttons on my left button box, 16 on my F1 wheel, 8 on my CSS and 2 on my sequential shifter.

 

So in total I am at 72 buttons in total

 

I've ordered a USB hub with individual power switches for each port like you have.  This will get me started in the right direction it seems.  Would be awesome to have a "SMART" usb hub like this where you can program it to turn on ports in a certain order with a specified delay, or wait until the previous port was online in order to automate this for system boot.

 

 

 

Cool. That will help you a lot. Just remember if you get your controllers stuck in the wrong order, you don't need to reboot. Just remove them all from the devices and printers control panel then switch them back on in the correct order.

 

If you need a hand getting used to controlling the order then feel free to give me a shout.

 

I want to build simulator cockpits for a local business and I'm not sure they would be keen to go through this startup process every morning.

 

 

Unfortunately if you want to have a complex simulator on an old game then you need to have a disiplined start up routine, or a pre-flight check list.

 

If it makes you feel better my rig is extremely complex with DIY motion, GS-4, Accuforce, dashboards and gauges.

 

here is my pre-flight list.

 

Check all the USB ports are switched off

Power on PC

Power on AF controller box

Turn on Motion simulator power supply

Flip the battery isolator on the motion simulator

Test both kill switches on the motion simulator

Hit front kill switch

Log in to windows

Start USB startup procedure

Switch on USB to the Accuforce

Then pedals

Then handbrake

Then CSS

Then Sequential

Then left button box

Then right button box

Then gauges and dashboards

Then motion simulator and GS-4

USB start up completed

Check the Controller order

Start FanaLEDS

Start Symprojects Sim Dash

Start Sim Tools Game Engine

Start Sim Tools Game Manager

Start Sim Commander

Put on boots (If it is a long race)

Make sure my wheel, gloves, wireless keyboard and harnesses are ready and close to hand

Sit in the rig

Release front kill switch

Test the motion simulator motors and control

Hit front kill switch

Attach quick release wheel.

Do up my harnesses loosely

Power on gauges

Load Sim Tools profile for the car I am driving

Launch game profile in Sim Commander

Check controller function in game.

release front kill switch

start a practice session to make sure all the motion etc is working

join the server

Gloves on

tighten belts

RACE RACE RACE!!!!!!!!!!

[zim2323 9]

Great information Avenga!  Reallly appreciate the feedback and help with this.  Comments/questions in-line below...

 

"So from this I can only assume that something else is going on during the boot up. What you say might be true if all the devices are plugged in to the same hub but it is not what I have ever experienced, but maybe windows might process each hub in a different order, like rank them by PID/VID per hub before moving on to the next hub or maybe some devices might take longer to connect so they are bumped down the list. I don't really know how it orders them or if it even tries to. All I know is that don't always show up in the same order for me. So if there is this ordering system that you say there is then it is not working very well (I am not saying it doesn't exist, just that if it does then Microsoft has done a terrible job of coding it because my controllers are never in the same order after a reboot, they are always somewhat random)"

THIS!  Reading your explanation, I see what you're getting at.  I didn't take into account a per HUB initialization or even timeout.  That would explain why so many people have so many different experiences with this.  Ultimately, I like the individually power-switched USB HUB as the fix.

 

"I had a read of that page. I am thinking that he just made the assumption on how the USB ordering And couldn't figure out how to manipulate the order of the controllers so that you can have your controllers with axis at the start of the order.  I think the way he is doing it is really bad, using something like Vjoy will add latency and complexity to your steering and pedals that you just don't want. It is okay using Xpadder for buttons because they aren't has time critical or as accurate as pedals or steering."

There's another page/post that he made describing his issues and ultimately he was doing what you did, but without a USB HUB with individually power-switched ports.  The post I linked was his "fix".  Ultimately I agree with you, and while experimenting came to the same conclusion.   Works for buttons, but I don't want any issues or latency introduced in my wheel and pedals as well.

 

"Back in the day when I first hit this limit I read tons of pages like this with crazy ways of trying to re-write USB ID's and use emulation software but nobody seemed to actually stop and think about how they can manipulate to order naturally.  I hope you can see by these screenshots that it is easy to control the order of you controller by using a USB hub with switches and/or removing them from the control panel and connecting them in the correct order.  I have been doing using this method for a long time now and I know it works."

Can you explain your exact process for removing a device and adding it back?  I'm on Windows 7 and no matter what I do, disable, uninstall, unplug, etc, I get the same joystick order as I had before (wheel, shifter, pedals, button box).  You can make it complicated, as I'm an advanced user/admin, but I've honestly just never had to mess with any of this until now.  LOL

 

 

[Avenga76 835]

Hey Chris. Rather than explaining the technique I use I figured it was easier to record a quick video showing you how I change the order of game controllers

 

[serrasalmus 257]

bloody brilliant.....and thats a nice usb hub

[zim2323 9]

Thanks Avenga.

 

Unfortunately, I do not have a "Remove Device" option available on ANY of my devices, joystick, or otherwise, except the printers.  I'm running Windows 7 Ultimate.

 

What OS are you running?

[Avenga76 835]

Windows 8.1

[zim2323 9]

Thanks.  I'm personally waiting on Win10 before I upgrade.

 

That said, I figured out how to remove devices (uninstall) in Win7.  However, I found that the Thrustmaster drivers/software for the shifter forces the shifter to reconnect no matter what I do, disconnected from the HUB or not.

 

I'll have to figure out how to use the shifter without the official software if it's possible in order to keep it from forcing it available.

[ClubberGr 2]

razorsimon can u tell me exactly how much you payed for the wheel delivered to your door i mean with taxes, custom services,vat,shiping you know everything because im thinking about it but a friend told me that with a price of 1750 it will cost another 1000euro for sure.i ve also heard about some rumoros for a reseller here in europe.

[zim2323 9]

Avenga,

 

I received my new USB HUB with individual power switches today.  No matter what I do, I can not change the order in Windows 7.  It is most definitely locked to the VendorID.  No matter what order I power on, always the same order.  Must just be something they've changed in Windows 8/8.1.  I've even gone as far as to take ownership and forcefully delete those devices from the registry.  Always comes back the same.

 

Win10 is coming soon.  If I order my AF, I'm going to have to upgrade to 8.1 sooner then I'd hoped.  Really hoping I don't run into the multi-monitor issues I've heard about if I have to do that.

[Avenga76 835]

Yes, it does sound like Windows 7 treats USB differently to Windows 8.1

 

I am running 4 monitors on my rig (3x27" running in Nvidia Surround and a 65" TV) and I haven't had any multi-monitor issues on Windows 8.1. What issues have you heard about? 

[zim2323 9]

Thanks Avenga.

 

Windows 8.1 Pro license aquired.  I've finished downloading all 8.1 specific drivers.   I'm going to do a final backup of my Win7 build before I wipe and load Win8.1Pro.

[zim2323 9]

I'm buying my AF used.  The person I'm buying from sold the original OEM rim, so I contacted Kevin at SimXperience to purchase one.  Email was slow, but seemed to work fine.  I got my quote, but trying to call and actually purchase this thing is getting annoying.  I've sent 2 emails now, and I've attempted to call at least 3 times, the last of which I was on hold for almost 30 minutes.

 

I don't care how busy they are, GET SOMEONE ON THE PHONE TO ANSWER CALLS!!!!

[Gunstar 615]

I'm buying my AF used.  The person I'm buying from sold the original OEM rim, so I contacted Kevin at SimXperience to purchase one.  Email was slow, but seemed to work fine.  I got my quote, but trying to call and actually purchase this thing is getting annoying.  I've sent 2 emails now, and I've attempted to call at least 3 times, the last of which I was on hold for almost 30 minutes.

 

I don't care how busy they are, GET SOMEONE ON THE PHONE TO ANSWER CALLS!!!!

 

Why not just replace it with a different rim? The stock rim is nothing special.

[Davidr1979 66]

I have to beg my wife to let me buy one of these wheels!

[zim2323 9]

Why not just replace it with a different rim? The stock rim is nothing special.

 

Does it really matter?  That doesn't absolve them of their responsibility as a business.

[Gunstar 615]

I suppose not. I was just thinking more for your usage and value, as I am sure they want more than those eBay specials than they're worth.

[zim2323 9]

Update....

 

5 days later...  several more phone calls, another hour or so "on hold", and a vmail.  Sent another email as well.

 

Not sure what else it's gonna' take to get there attention to get this part ordered.  Darin Gangi...can you help???

[sebj 616]

Try the simxperience forum. If all else fails try iRacing forums. 

[zim2323 9]

I don't have access to iRacing forums and I don't have access to the SimXperience forums because they haven't transferred the warranty/software licenses from previous owner yet.