Powerful cars UBER hard to drive w/o assits?

[Benzinbruder 1]

Hi guys,

 

since I cannot afford to race real cars on real tracks, I try to get as much out of games like Forza in terms or realism as possible.

That means that I drive with clutch and a shifter (all Thrustmaster gear) and turn all assits off.

 

I wouldn't say that I am a truly great driver, but I did some laps over the years in various sims and I am eager to practice and learn. However, in Forza 5, I really have problems to keep some (most?) cars on the track instead of searching for the perfect line and lap time.

 

Yesterday I had a friend over, also an experienced sim racer, and he felt the same.

E.g., when using no assists, cars like a Lamborghini Gallardo do spin out all the time, even when approaching corners at ridiculously low speeds. A Bugatti Veyron does spin twice(!) at the exact moment I am THINKING of applying some throttle after the apex.

 

This gets to the point that playing Forza is becoming much more of a frustatration than it is fun or challenging.

I have checked all my settings various times already, altered the dead zones, etc. All seems fine.

 

One thing that especially bugs me is that when I drive a Toyota GT86, it is almost impossible to downshift while braking as this almost always leads to blocking the rear tires when engaging the clutch. Is this really realistic behaviour? I mean, the car doesn't have all that much power, and I do not suppose that all GT86 drivers are heel-toeing all the time!?

 

I have tried some Imprezas recently, and they seem to behave fine. Also, the AWD Eclipse allowed me some fun laps in Spa today.

 

Do you have the same experience?

Are RWD cars just undriveable or am I doing something wrong?

 

I'd really appreciate some input on this!

Thanks! 

[SUPERNOVADAVE 50]

IN Forza 5 the cars have preset tune`s that vary from car to car. AS any good sim should be, they want you to tune your car to drive as you would like.

Once you learn how to tune a given car the difference can be dramatic.

For the car that you mentioned that the rear lock`s up when downshifting and braking - here is a little hint. Most games and sims have programing errors of some kind and Forza 5 is no exception.

When tuning a car to attempt to stop the dredded rear end lockup - go to the brake settings ( make sure you have race brakes installed ). Look at the brake bias slider - if you see a setting of 50 or higher set it to about 44 to 40. Now here is the confusing part - this setting means that you now have reduced the brake application in the rear and this should correct the back end coming around.

The brake bias in the game is confusing as the slider should show 100-0-100 instead of 100-0

Basically the bias slider effect is reversed in the game - when setting it towards the left - 50 or higher - this should shift the bias towards the front brake`s but in actuality it shift`s it to the rear. ( they sure messed that one up ).

[Benzinbruder 1]

Thanks for the hint. I'll try this!

 

However, the stock version of the cars should, at least in a sim, behave as much as the original as possible. And if that's the case, I am tempted to try a GT86 at a local dealer. I'd have to have good insurance though, as chances that I'd spin the car in the first corner would be really high, given my Forza 5 record...

 

I do not feel it is the brakes alone, it's the moment I engage the clutch that leads to rear wheel lockup immediately. I have never experienced such a drastic behaviour in a real car whatsoever.

 

As for the more powerful cars: If only slightly touching the throttle would lead to a double spin, those cars would be undrivable in real-life.

Also, corner speed: I mean, I get much higher corner speeds at, say, Yas Marina corners 18 and 19, with a 2011 Impreza than with a Gallardo.

 

Can that really be!? At what speed can you guys drive through turn 18 with a stock Veyron without spinning out?

[Paul Heijmans 226]

Maybe u should heel and toe , it helps keeping ur car in balance .

[Benzinbruder 1]

Nothing against heel and toe, but I think most would agree that it's more of an advanced technique which I haven't fully mastered yet.

 

Also, it is definitey not a must in a car like a GT86, at least that what's I think. Keep in mind that I am using a "real" clutch, not a (analog) button. Even when engaging the clutch too quickly when downshifting I doubt that the car would lock the rear tires suddenly. I'd say the revs would maybe go up, depending on at which speed I shift to which gear. But when approaching a corner that can be driven through in 2nd, breaking accordingly, shifting into second and engaging the clutch should not lead to a spin-out.

 

Also, I am used to using the gear change as braking-assist in real life (which maybe is a stupid idea after all?).

Heel-toeing means no engine breaking, doesn't it!

[SUPERNOVADAVE 50]

If you are having a problem with the back end in the GT86 then soften up the the rear springs and sway bars - decrease the rear shock bump and rebound - adjust the diff acceleration to about 90 and the deceleration to about 60. As I said earlier - you must tune the car to your liking or adapt to the car your driving.

[Benzinbruder 1]

As I said earlier - you must tune the car to your liking or adapt to the car your driving.

 

I fully agree. It was just that I couldn't believe that a car like the GT86 was so hard to drive when stock.

 

Also, more powerful cars like the 2008 M3, the Gallardo and the Veyron (at least that's some of the cars I have tried so far), are so hard to drive with the assists off in Forza 5, that I have a hard time believing Joe billionaire Average has any chance driving the car from the dealer to his cliffside summer residence.

 

I just want to get some input if it's just my novice driver style or if Forza 5 really can be overly, unrealistically hard.

[ApexVGear 207]

As for using the transmission to "brake" the car, that's actually a very bad habit, and Gran Turismo, even the earliest versions, almost promoted driving that way. Though this won't apply to all turns, it's best to find your braking point and decelerate just enough so you can start increasing power as soon as possible--and that's usually BEFORE you get to the apex of the turn. If you drive a lot of Formula sims (F1, F2, etc.) those cars will get you out of that habit quickly, and you'll find you start getting faster lap times when you approach your turns without engine braking, and concentrating more on your exit line--that actually begins as you're entering the turn (to put it simply). Of course now Formula 1 complicates this because the new engines actually need braking to "harvest" electrical energy for their hybrid power units--but that's a whole other discussion.

 

I am certainly not a master of the heel-toe technique, but it's all about car control and handling when decelerating--to keep the power and your line as smooth as possible. Smooth power and driving lines are what adds up to the best lap times, and to track-side spectators, the fastest lap always appears slower than the other laps--but you know in your gut while you're driving it was a fast lap. Occasionally I'll have friends over that will watch as I demonstrate a track to them (I have hundreds of GTR2 mods). They'll see me go through a turn, and I'll shake my head. They'll ask me what was wrong with the turn--that it looked fine to them. I'll respond that it was a sloppy line, the power was wrong, and if they watched closely, I had to make a correction or two--I probably just lost up to 5 tenths of a second right there.

 

The "stock" factory versions of the cars in Forza are somewhat driveable, but it's rare you'd want to take a stock car to a track and push it to it's limits. The race and track cars are slightly better, but they all need some tuning--it's like the guys at Turn 10 just didn't have the time to really do much tuning at all. They set them up, drove a couple of laps, said that works, then "next."

 

Before I do any "power" upgrades, I work on the handling and drivetrain first. I prefer to drive a car that handles extremely well over power--you just have to find a good balance between handling and straight-line speed. In Forza 5 (and 4 for that matter), when you upgrade the transmission and the differential, the settings are at a default, and WAY WAY off what they should be. I spend a lot of time adjusting the gear ratios, and the differential "deceleration" always needs to be dialed back.

 

It's best just to make upgrades and take the car into test drive mode where you can make adjustments without even leaving the track.

 

Now if only they'd improve the "center" force feedback in Forza 5. There's none or very little feedback at all until you start turning "deep" into a curve, then all of a sudden there's way too much. The TX feels incredible on the PC, but it feels "floaty" in Forza 5. I'm not really enjoying it that much--keep returning to the PC. Maybe I keep missing a setting somewhere in Forza 5.

 

...and don't get me started about "Drivaretards" (sorry for the use of the word, but it best describes them), and every single-player career race only lasting two or three laps while starting at the back of the grid. That promotes the worst racing skills, forcing you to often dive in on the AI drivers and using other bad habits that would actually get a driver penalized or banned from racing in the real world.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like Forza for what it is, but they could take what is already an excellent base and add more options to make it a better "simulator" for serious drivers.

[ozzy84 3]

I have the opposite feeling about FFB in Forza 5 when compared to AC or F1 on PC using TX. I keep going back to Forza over PC, for smoothness and VERY good FFB.

 

I would like to compare "Apples to Apples with you", all settings (start procedure for XBONE, car, tune, wheels settings, etc..)

 

Let me know, and I will post my settings for my favorite car, and you can see if you get the same results.

[GRD 4 3L 28]

I have driven many cars in stock form and use no assists but use controller.  My typical problem is understeer, not oversteer.  I typically experience exit oversteer on super light cars such as Caterham, Atom, XBow, '67 F1, etc.  Stock Lamborghinis and Ferrari's tend to push a bit.  GT86 and Subaru BRZ tend to be a little slippery and requires delicate brake/throttle inputs.  Most other cars, I find, understeer in general.

 

In conclusion, the cars behave as I expect them to.

 

SuperNovaDave is absolutely correct about the brake bias.

 

Are you using simulation steering by any chance?  Simulation steering is much more sensitive and requires super smooth inputs to keep the cars in check.

[ApexVGear 207]

I have the opposite feeling about FFB in Forza 5 when compared to AC or F1 on PC using TX. I keep going back to Forza over PC, for smoothness and VERY good FFB.

 

I would like to compare "Apples to Apples with you", all settings (start procedure for XBONE, car, tune, wheels settings, etc..)

 

Let me know, and I will post my settings for my favorite car, and you can see if you get the same results.

 

I agree that the TX FF is VERY smooth, but so far, I often have the experience where you feel nothing or very little while driving straight, or the car suddenly feels like it's floating just as you enter a turn. I've tried different FF strength settings, but stronger makes the problem even more apparent--you enter a turn and feel very little, then all of a sudden the force feedback ramps up and takes over the steering.

 

For my best FF feel, Race 07 and GTR2 have been incredible. On some of my mods for older cars, you can feel the tires begin to skip on some turns with more camber and a rough surface, and the wheel feels incredibly realistic. It's still incredibly smooth, but it "wiggles" and "jostles" as it should. I'm not getting that from Forza 5.

[Benzinbruder 1]

Hey guys, thanks a lot for all your input!!

 

I will try to shake the engine braking habit. Had a nice chat with a friend an hour ago, also a very experienced driver, and we talked a lot about braking and downshifting. It'll be interesting to see how this works both in the sim and the real world.

 

I am using simulator steering, "of course". I had a lot of problems catching a car when it started to spin, but I have the feeling that I am slowly getting better at it.

 

I totally second the rage about the stupid career races - starting from the back of the pack (why no qualifying!?) and only having two or three laps. I hadn't given that a thought, but indeed this must promote bad driving habits and that's what a lot of online races seem to suffer from.

 

 

@Supernovadave: I will give your recommended settings a shot. I am interested to see if that works.

 

I will also sink some time in finetuning my transmission and differential settings. This probably results in me having to concentrate on just a few cars though. So then. Makes it easier to not buy #%&$$$$$$$ DLC...

 

 

@ApexvGear: I too prefer a well handling car, even if that means sacrificing power / top speed. That's why I usually stay clear of everything "muscle".

Not sure about the throttle before the apex comment though. When do you stop braking? Before turn in? Wouldn't it be most efficient to slightly loosen the brakes the deeper you enter a turn?

[SUPERNOVADAVE 50]

All braking should be done at the end of a straight before entering a turn if possible. Upon turn entry you should be slightly on the throttle and be ready to apply more throttle within the car`s limit of traction until you reach turn exit . By that time you should be able to go full throttle.

Deceleration braking is ok as long as the transmission gearing is not too short ( this will help settle the car ). If the gearing is too short for the engine powerband this will contribute to the rear end coming around upon deceleration ( Engine compression lockup ).

I personally prefer a car to have a slight oversteer tendency as it is easier to predict and correct as opposed to understeer where the only thing you can do is slow down.

All in all I have never driven in any sim that is 100% realistic to the real world so do not expect an exact representation of any car compared to it`s real world counterpart.

[ApexVGear 207]

@ApexvGear: I too prefer a well handling car, even if that means sacrificing power / top speed. That's why I usually stay clear of everything "muscle".

Not sure about the throttle before the apex comment though. When do you stop braking? Before turn in? Wouldn't it be most efficient to slightly loosen the brakes the deeper you enter a turn?

 

Ideally you should decelerate down to the best entry speed just before you turn in--and then move your foot over to the throttle pedal immediately--but not to "floor" it. At first, you may only apply enough throttle to bring the engine up to where it matches your speed, then begin to increase the throttle as you approach the apex and continue to increase to full throttle as you exit.

 

Even just the slightest amount of power to the wheels as you turn in can make a difference, and cut a 100th to 10th of a second.

 

I've driven pro-level karts, and a lot of what I learned can be applied to almost any type of road racing. Single speed "one-gear" karts must be driven with the least amount of deceleration before entering a turn so you can get back on the throttle and build the momentum back up quickly as you enter, apex, and exit the turn. With karts, you almost have to immediately "floor" them because of how the clutch mechanism works and the traction and grip karts provide. Cars aren't as forgiving (and there's gears), but the same "momentum" technique is a benefit. It's just a matter of running lap after lap to find that limit of traction for each turn, while thinking "beyond the turn" at the same time.

[GRD 4 3L 28]

I am using simulator steering, "of course". I had a lot of problems catching a car when it started to spin, but I have the feeling that I am slowly getting better at it.

 

Using 'simulation' steering, spinning out is very common.  Throttle and steering input must be very precise and smooth.  For stock cars, only thing you can do is be SMOOTH in throttle/steering and avoid overdriving.

 

'simulation' steering is very different in FM5 than it was in FM4.  It feels more realistic to me but puts me at a disadvantage in races.

[ozzy84 3]

I agree that the TX FF is VERY smooth, but so far, I often have the experience where you feel nothing or very little while driving straight, or the car suddenly feels like it's floating just as you enter a turn. I've tried different FF strength settings, but stronger makes the problem even more apparent--you enter a turn and feel very little, then all of a sudden the force feedback ramps up and takes over the steering.

 

For my best FF feel, Race 07 and GTR2 have been incredible. On some of my mods for older cars, you can feel the tires begin to skip on some turns with more camber and a rough surface, and the wheel feels incredibly realistic. It's still incredibly smooth, but it "wiggles" and "jostles" as it should. I'm not getting that from Forza 5.

 

@ ApexVGear,

 

I would like you to try all settings attached via photos with F333 SP Car,

 

Thrustmaster internal wheel settings are all stock (900 DOR, FFB Sensitivity 1 blink)

 

No assits except Auto (this car I like to concentrate on steering feel and not be bothered by shifting) and TCS

 

Start-Up Procedure:

 

1.  Plug in TX to power, TX will callibrate,

2.  Turn on XBONE using console power button, TX will center

3.  Launch Forza using wheel, controller is power off.

4.  Change DOR from 900 to 360, for this car, using Forza profile not TX buttons (tried both ways and better results using Forza)

5.  Go Racing

 

If all is set up the same, on screen wheel rotation should match real wheel rotation, which means, to me, that Forza and wheel are "speaking the same language"

 

It would be great if you could give this a go and post back with results.

 

Also if you could give me your settings to try, I will do the same.

 

Thanks.

 

 

[Benzinbruder 1]

All braking should be done at the end of a straight before entering a turn if possible. Upon turn entry you should be slightly on the throttle and be ready to apply more throttle within the car`s limit of traction until you reach turn exit . By that time you should be able to go full throttle.

Deceleration braking is ok as long as the transmission gearing is not too short ( this will help settle the car ). If the gearing is too short for the engine powerband this will contribute to the rear end coming around upon deceleration ( Engine compression lockup ).

 

This is really new to me. I had always thought that it would be wise to break into the corner, in order to get the fastest lap times and use the maximum potential of the tires, i.e., applying lateral as well as deceleration / acceleration forces to the ground. However, thinking about it, of course I gain much higher corner speeds if I use all the tire grip for lateral forces already at the beginning of the corner...

 

Engine compression lockup (at the rear for RWD cars) should indeed only be a problem for high torque, short geared cars. However, it should not happen if I engage the clutch at speeds where the engine's rpm's match the current speed and the gear I am switching to. It should be a butter smooth transition. Maybe I didn't always exactly match that, but still the behavior I experienced seemed odd to me. I'll put a few more laps on my GT86.

 

 

Ideally you should decelerate down to the best entry speed just before you turn in--and then move your foot over to the throttle pedal immediately--but not to "floor" it. At first, you may only apply enough throttle to bring the engine up to where it matches your speed, then begin to increase the throttle as you approach the apex and continue to increase to full throttle as you exit.

 

Even just the slightest amount of power to the wheels as you turn in can make a difference, and cut a 100th to 10th of a second.

 

I've driven pro-level karts, and a lot of what I learned can be applied to almost any type of road racing. Single speed "one-gear" karts must be driven with the least amount of deceleration before entering a turn so you can get back on the throttle and build the momentum back up quickly as you enter, apex, and exit the turn. With karts, you almost have to immediately "floor" them because of how the clutch mechanism works and the traction and grip karts provide. Cars aren't as forgiving (and there's gears), but the same "momentum" technique is a benefit. It's just a matter of running lap after lap to find that limit of traction for each turn, while thinking "beyond the turn" at the same time.

 

So, you suggest to engage the clutch after shifting to a lower gear right at turn-in, after braking ("throttle to bring the enginge up to where it matches you speed")?

Also, what about the front-to-rear weight transfer at this moment? I suppose breaking should be hard at the beginning and ease off the nearer I get to turning in to improve the car's stability? Is that what you do?

 

Driving carts is awesome, although the ones I am getting to drive most of the time are far from pro-level. Any hint for how to nail those 180° turns after a long straight without losing all the speed? Just follow the guide above?

 

 

Using 'simulation' steering, spinning out is very common.  Throttle and steering input must be very precise and smooth.  For stock cars, only thing you can do is be SMOOTH in throttle/steering and avoid overdriving.

 

'simulation' steering is very different in FM5 than it was in FM4.  It feels more realistic to me but puts me at a disadvantage in races.

 

I'll try to be smooth all the way!

I have added you to my friends list on XBL since you've also searched for like-minded racers in another thread here. Looking forward to work on cracking your laptimes!

[SUPERNOVADAVE 50]

Try to avoid braking at any time you are in a turn as this could add to traction problems which would slow you down. By doing all braking before entering a turn this will enable you to concentrate on accelerating during and upon exiting a turn.

[GRD 4 3L 28]

I'll try to be smooth all the way!

I have added you to my friends list on XBL since you've also searched for like-minded racers in another thread here. Looking forward to work on cracking your laptimes!

I don't have a lot of competitive higher class laptimes because I just don't enjoy these super cars.  I can drive them, just not as enjoyable as the lower class cars where I can relax a bit.

 

If you are feeling inclined for a challenge, however, then consider P1 vs Nordschleiffe Rivals.  I've put in a good deal of driving time & effort into that one.

[Benzinbruder 1]

I'm not really any good in supercars at the moment either. I am sticking to class C and B for the moment, and as mentioned above, I really enjoy AWD cars as they seem to provide me with lots of grip.

 

I agree that braking and the accompanying weight transfer may lead to traction problems / does definitely lead to traction problems if you are already at the limit of friction that the tires can provide.

However, the same is true for acceleration.

 

One thing bugs me though:

Check out turns 15, 16 and 17 in Yas Marina (source: wikipedia):

 

 

How would you recommend to tackle that combination?

I usually cut 15, accelerate through 16 and start braking shortly after exiting 16 for the sharp right in 17. This means I have to brake while doing a slight turn (from 16 inside to entering 17 on the outside). What's the best race line here?

 

It's really awesome to be able to discuss things like that with you guys. Thanks for your advice!

[ApexVGear 207]

I'll need to run that track again a few times and "pay attention" to what I'm doing there. It's one of my favorite combination of turns.

 

In Formula 1, I'm pretty sure I continue to accelerate, beginning with controlled throttle as I enter 14, increase as I pass the apex, then full throttle into the straight, take 15 and 16 as if they're a single sweeping curve, then "straighten up" and brake hard, turn in to 17, foot back on the throttle (controlled) immediately after braking, catch some inside curb, then some outside rumble strip, then hard braking again followed by slight acceleration through 18, let off a little after the exit (under the hotel), then accelerate into 19, and increase while following an arc to the outside (take advantage of the kink) then down the straight.

 

I tend to use the same approach, even with slower cars, with some adjustments for car handling and limitations.

[GRD 4 3L 28]

I also enjoy turns 15 > 19 at YM.  

 

Unless the car has a lot of down force, I usually lift a little midway between 15R & 16R.  There are odd times where the car feels particularly balanced where I feel confident enough to flat out through 16R but those times are rare.  For car without down force 15R should should be taken wide in order to present the car as straight as possible for the approach to 17R.

 

Braking for 17R has to be done at shallow turn therefore braking has to be gentle and early since going off track at this point costs much time.  Clipping 17R helps the car to turn toward 18.  It is beneficial to be slower through 17R in order to stay on the right side since 18L is another 90 degree corner.

 

Anyways, for 15R, I stay as far left as possible without running off track then try to clip apex of 16R.  If I try to hit both 15R & 16R, then the approach to 17 becomes too steep for safe braking.

 

In races, I catch up to many competitors and pass them when they go off at 17.  Staying tight at 17 also allows strong exit at 18L which after 19L leads to a short straight.

[Benzinbruder 1]

In Formula 1 [...] take 15 and 16 as if they're a single sweeping curve, then "straighten up" and brake hard, turn in to 17, foot back on the throttle (controlled) [...]

 

 

Unless the car has a lot of down force, I usually lift a little midway between 15R & 16R.  There are odd times where the car feels particularly balanced where I feel confident enough to flat out through 16R but those times are rare.  For car without down force 15R should should be taken wide in order to present the car as straight as possible for the approach to 17R.

 

Braking for 17R has to be done at shallow turn therefore braking has to be gentle and early since going off track at this point costs much time.  Clipping 17R helps the car to turn toward 18.  It is beneficial to be slower through 17R in order to stay on the right side since 18L is another 90 degree corner.

 

Anyways, for 15R, I stay as far left as possible without running off track then try to clip apex of 16R.  If I try to hit both 15R & 16R, then the approach to 17 becomes too steep for safe braking.

 

It's the "straightening up" before 17 that makes problems for me.

I also sometimes feel like taking 15 and 16 full throttle, but as GRD43L said, this can be of high cost if the car destabilzes during braking for 17 and gets off the track. I'll definitely try to invest more in turn 15 to benefit from a more straight line when approaching 17, I would not have thought of that. It seems like a good plan.

 

Also, staying right after 17 sounds interesting. I'll test that as well. Especially for 18 I could possible really use a bigger radius since I had a lot of problems losing (super)cars there, even at very low speeds.

[GRD 4 3L 28]

Yes, do NOT take 17R wide.  Then 18L can be a much larger arc by cutting across the apex - feather the throttle here for best traction.  Then enter 19L early as well then you can have great exit speed.

[Jezza819 7]

 

Now if only they'd improve the "center" force feedback in Forza 5. There's none or very little feedback at all until you start turning "deep" into a curve, then all of a sudden there's way too much. The TX feels incredible on the PC, but it feels "floaty" in Forza 5. I'm not really enjoying it that much--keep returning to the PC. Maybe I keep missing a setting somewhere in Forza 5.

 

 

 

Completely agree. That floaty, springy feeling in the middle is absolutely driving me mad. All the FF is at the outer edges with nothing in the middle. I've tried most every DOR, every sensitivity setting (number of flashes) on the wheel, nothing seems to help it. You can put you left or right hand on the wheel and pull down hard, let it go, and the wheel will just bounce back and forth until it comes to a stop. I can't remember my Fanatec GT2 having that much spring in the middle. That might be what was so good about the Fanatec and what's causing the problem on the TX.

 

But to the OP's initial question. In FM4 I never had to use TCS in anything except the P1 cars. But in FM5 I've had to use it in everything since the first day I got the game. I can't remember driving anything bare stock though and I don't have the patience to do tuning myself. When I tried to do without TCS the throttle felt way too sensitive. I was spinning out everything.