Episode 73 - Forza Past, Present and Future - Plei Chair

[Defcon Won 1]

EDIT: I made this the official thread for the show..

Back to our regular scheduling we start with Forza Motorsports, Past, Present and Future. We also review the Plei Chair by Plei Factory and we're back with Top Simulated Cars of All Time and we add two new cars to the list.

Comment by Defcon below..

Nice piece!

I didn't realize it had been 3 versions in 5 years. I've got Forza 2 but never cared for it. 3 was a vast improvement due to the cockpit (and the "oh !@#$" rewind button). I'm with you that it's not a sim, but very close. Something about the physics never feel quite right, but it's getting better with adjustment.

However, I'm not happy! (where's that soapbox?)

On the part about Forza not being a sim, nor GT5 "or is anything on the console for that matter."

Just take that knife you stuck in my heart and twist it a little to the right would you?

I could name a couple of items that a true sim would need to be considered a "sim" that most sims are lacking, but I'll just say that moving from Race Pro to Race 07 is practically seemless. GTR2 even seems a little more forgiving when I tried that demo than when I started Race Pro. Also, Race Pro gives you the additional option for a natural career progression and does *not* have the R*Cade (whatever it is) option that cames with GTREVO (that isn't necessary). Of course, the catch could be that I consider all to be sims, maybe you guys don't see the Race series as sims. I know iRacing has changed many peoples' minds, and it does show not only a proper career advancement but top notch physics. But does that mean sims that don't offer iRacing's physics (none do) and don't offer a proper career like Race Pro and iRacing do aren't sims? Maybe there's only 1 sim now, and it comes with a monthly and per car and track fee? That cost adds to the simulation I guess, in racing you go as fast as you can afford!

(RBR is not a sim, it's a torture chamber that I still refuse to acknowledge or forgive!)

We all know it's personal opinion, but I sure do hate it when Race Pro gets forgotten in the shadow of Forza and GT5. When a sim comes out on console, it needs constant recognition so that maybe we get another instead of it getting forgotten and lost to time.

I saw a GREAT tip on racedepartment, maybe it's elsewhere too, that helped me out with Forza recently.

Enable multiple monitors, even with just 1 monitor. It functions as the center, and the FOV is the default 45 degrees. Up it to 90 and you get a much better perspective, including the exterior rear view mirrors. I always felt like I was looking out of a ship's porthole in that game, the view was very restrictive before doing this.

Whomever posted that, thank you. If I had the link handy I'd post it to give proper credit.

[Okoe Dokie 1]

Race Pro is a PC port of Race 07 as you mention. Look at how poorly Race Pro sold on X360. GT5 and FM3 are solely on console which is what I figured they were referring to when they made that statement.

P.S Maybe it's just me but Race Pro seems to be a little easier than Race 07.

[Roy Visser 2]

Race Pro is a PC port of Race 07 as you mention. Look at how poorly Race Pro sold on X360. GT5 and FM3 are solely on console which is what I figured they were referring to when they made that statement.

P.S Maybe it's just me but Race Pro seems to be a little easier than Race 07.

Race Pro is definitly not a port of Race 07!! Race Pro uses the Lizard engine which simbin developed itself, and not the ISI engine on which Race07 GTR2 etc run on. The game has been completly developed from scratch for the Xbox!

[cepwin 4]

As someone who has played all the Forza games I really enjoyed this piece. As I mentioned in other posts it was my search for Forza information that led me to ISR which led me to iRacing and sim racing in general. I've been spoiled by the G27 and the lack of feel in my xbox wheel really hurts the experience now (vs. GT5 prologue and other PS3 games where I can use my G27.) I'd really like to see someone come up with a decent wheel (ie. real FFB and a realistic "feel") for the xbox that doesn't cost a fortune. (Perhaps I should have gotten that Fanatic wheel but I love my G27.)

[Defcon Won 1]

Race Pro is definitly not a port of Race 07!! Race Pro uses the Lizard engine which simbin developed itself, and not the ISI engine on which Race07 GTR2 etc run on. The game has been completly developed from scratch for the Xbox!

Correct! I'm told that Race Pro + dlc is pretty close to being Race On, in content, not engine, but I don't have it yet to say if that's right.

[Tinker 15]

That "GUCCI" Plei Chair...what can I say, with out offending too many pple, so I would just limit my comment to...at that price I can get a full rig that would be 100% better .

[Megasoum 0]

If you guys think that the Forza/Turn 10 community management is good, you should check the official F1 2010 forum on the Codemaster website. Stephen Hood and all the other employees are INCREDIBLE. You can even ask questions to Steve on twitter and he will reply a couple of hours later. We got more information from the team on that forum in the last 2 months that we had in 2 years from Turn 10.

After all the bad experiences we had with Che and Turn 10 with them lying to the community and avoiding questions, finding the Cody forums was a breath of fresh air!

[RaceManIak 0]

Guys, you should class games in 3 categtories :

Racing Game : Just for fun (Burnout, Hot pursuit, Blur, Split/second, Pure)

Fun sim : Realistic, but fun (Dirt2, Forza, GT, Shift, TDU, MX vs ATV Reflex, MotoGP)

Full sim : aka full frustration and need to be your only hobby (iRacing, rFactor, RBR, SBK X)

Great show btw !

[cepwin 4]

LOL...very accurate breakdown I think. The only change I'd make is put MotoGP09 in the fun sim category as I played the demo for 10 and it seemed more sim than the others in the racing game category. SBK X is definately sim...perhaps even "full sim."

I have to agree with the comment about the price of the chair that Tinker made earlier. I can not see spending more than $250 complete for it. I paid, *shipped* less than $400 for my obbuto and it is a solid, full rig that can also work quite nicely as a gaming chair if one is so inclined.

Guys, you should class games in 3 categtories :

Racing Game : Just for fun (Burnout, Hot pursuit, Blur, Split/second, MotoGP09)

Fun sim : Realistic, but fun (Dirt2, Forza, GT, Shift, TDU, MX vs ATV Reflex)

Full sim : aka full frustration and need to be your only hobby (iRacing, rFactor, RBR, SBK X)

Great show btw !

[RaceManIak 0]

You're right, I move motogp and add Pure in racing game

LOL...very accurate breakdown I think. The only change I'd make is put MotoGP09 in the fun sim category as I played the demo for 10 and it seemed more sim than the others in the racing game category. SBK X is definately sim...perhaps even "full sim."

[PBearHBK 4]

I really enjoyed the new episode, a lot. Especially since I am a Forza fanboy. I will give you that it is not a full racing sim. But, as you mention, the community and the activity level is through the roof.

I'm not looking a gift horse in the mouth, but ever after winning my 1 year sub to iRacing (thanks guy) I play Forza a lot more than iRacing.

I still love iRacing, and I love the fact I can make custom paints for it. But, I just love the community and more "friendly" aspect of Forza. I have spent hours on designs and paint jobs for dream-cars that I will probably never see in real life in Forza. It's just a great complete package for me. I will still continue to renew my iRacing sub and work my way through it's ranks. I honestly think it helps my overall driving. But I just love the "fantasy"aspect of Forza,such as crazy and fun modes, like Tag and cat-and-mouse. I think you should play around with those modes and other non-racing modes in Forza and give them a review as well.

There is nothin like ramming a Datsun going 180 MPH into someone into someone driving a Bugati head-on and laughing your butt off with people over XBOX live.

[venom800tt 0]

Great episode, I just wish there were more sim that used a normal street car like forza/gt5 not like race car. I live race cars (dont get wrong) but I like to drive Rfactor with normal Ford Mustang, Charger, Challenger, Viper. Not the race version of them

[Raitzi 0]

I hope you return on "not sim" points at least when GT5 vs F3 review is done. Personally i do not care if i can drive the car in pits or not. Developers need to be ass whipped by you give us realistic physics and just give steering aids(hint) to people who want to use them.

[PorkRoll 0]

All I can say is that any guy who buys that Plei chair should also buy the accessory hook to hang his purse on.

[Darin Gangi 1,074]

You're right, I move motogp and add Pure in racing game

Great idea ! MX Vs ATV should be Racing Game though too

[RaceManIak 0]

Great idea ! MX Vs ATV should be Racing Game though too

Maybe for the previous games (Untamed and Unleashed) but Reflex stay in Funsim... sorry

[starfox550 0]

If you guys think that the Forza/Turn 10 community management is good, you should check the official F1 2010 forum on the Codemaster website. Stephen Hood and all the other employees are INCREDIBLE. You can even ask questions to Steve on twitter and he will reply a couple of hours later. We got more information from the team on that forum in the last 2 months that we had in 2 years from Turn 10.

After all the bad experiences we had with Che and Turn 10 with them lying to the community and avoiding questions, finding the Cody forums was a breath of fresh air!

I think I would wait until after release to see how active the Codemasters team are until I pass judgement, everything up until then is just drumming up potential sales, Codemasters seem to be the kings of marketing, No pre-release demo is suspect, Demos can hurt sales in a big way.

Never trust a salesman!

[Megasoum 0]

I think I would wait until after release to see how active the Codemasters team are until I pass judgement, everything up until then is just drumming up potential sales, Codemasters seem to be the kings of marketing, No pre-release demo is suspect, Demos can hurt sales in a big way.

Never trust a salesman!

T4RG4 answers almost all the questions asked on the forums and on twitter, even the ones that could potentialy affect negatively the sales (features not making it into the game, limitations for the online play, etc).

They also explained why there isn't any demo. This is due to mostly two things:

1-Limitation with the FOM license. Whatever the specific reason is, my guess is that the FOM don't want a version of the game where only one team would be playable which would be "unfair" for the other teams. This is the same reason that you can only take one car per team during online play. That's stupid IMO but that's the FOM. And you obviously can't put out a demo with all the teams...it's not really a demo anymore.

2-Serious time limitation. I work in the game industry myself (not for Codemasters) and I can tell you firsthand that making a demo takes up a lot of time. People think that you only have to take the game, delete a couple of files and send it over to Xbox Live/PSN. That's not how things work. You have to make a completely seperate product, you have to debug it with QA testers for at least a couple of weeks. Then you have to send it to Microsoft and Sony to get the certification before they finally accept to put it on the servers. As you can imagine, all this takes a lot of time, effort and money that could be used on the full game instead.

Now if you want to talk about king of marketing. Look at Turn 10 and Atari. Test Drive Unlimited 2 is coming out in two months and we still haven't seen any gameplay footage. All we see is the PR guy explaining what is happening in the trailer (really usefull....). Or Che from Turn 10 during the weeks/months before FM3 was released when he was constantly avoiding or dodging the questions on the official forums and on NeoGaf and the only times he actually replied, if it wasn't straight up PR bullsh*** it was misleading info (photo mode, image size, interior views etc).

I'm not saying that Cody is perfect or that F12010 will be perfect, far from it. But from what I've seen as a fan but also compared to what I see inside the industry (I work 10ft away from the marketing department for my studio), they can't really do a better PR job for their fans than what they are doing right now.

Again with the TDU comparison, I almost feel like I already played F1 2010 with all the informations I've seen and gathered so far from the official forum/Twitter but with TDU all I saw was a couple of promo shots that don't really show anything ingame. And you know what? Both games comes out on the exact same day...

Anyway, that post ended up being a lot longer than I expected but I had to say it hehe. No hard feeling!

[Defcon Won 1]

I think CM learned something after Operation Flashpoint: under-promise, over-deliver.

They talked up OFDR for a year before release and they simply weren't able to do all they wanted to. Understandable, but you shouldn't talk about what isn't 100% in the game. I think that if they had waited, only talked about what the game did that it would've been better received.

I checked their forum a while back and was impressed to see a community interview and it was specifically addressing what F1 would *not* have. No beating around the bush, they said what they couldn't do that people wanted, gave a good reason (although they couldn't elaborate if it would go into a game feature they couldn't discuss yet) and they moved on. That's how it should be done.

[GTRacer 0]

When I first saw the plei chair I thought it was foldable

Its quite expensive even in Europe for what your getting. the design is nice,but not worth the price Tag by far.

[Biggles 0]

Darin, I don't mean to nitpick but the Charger in ‘Bathurst Legends’ is a Chrysler Valiant Charger (apart from the webber carbs made entirely in Australia) Its not a 'Dodge Charger' that’s a completely different kind of beast (the Valiant is 29 inches shorter, 460 lb lighter, has much better handling and is only 6 cylinders – looks similar though)

The Valiant Charger held the record for the Fastest accelerating 2door production car in Australia for over 30years.

[srtfan1 0]

Darin,

I'm a fan of the show, but I do have some constructive criticism for you.

In regards to Forza 3, the original review of the game doesn't come across as a review. It comes across as a love letter to Forza 3. After your most recent episode, you guys admitted that you had not played all of Forza's modes. This is evident in that you didn't discuss the money glitch it had before the first patch, or the AWD vs RWD drive problems it still has.

Then, after spending quite a bit of time with iRacing, you gave it such a highly scrutinized review that you actually have it scored lower than Forza 3. Even though many people think iRacing is the best sim around today.

I think you have two issues that need to be corrected for the sake of your show.

1. You need to do a thorough testing of all games/sims that you review. Otherwise your evaluations come across as misinformed and wrong.

2. As someone else earlier suggested on this post, you need to classify games/sims into different groups. For example:

Strictly Sim

Some Sim/Some Arcade

Strictly Arcade

I appreciate the work you guys do, but please consider my feedback. I think it will greatly help your show.

[Defcon Won 1]

When I read or watch a review about a game, I rarely pay much attention to the rating numbers. Not that I don't appreciate the effort, and I think the system here is among the more comprehensive, but what someone has to say is much more important.

I haven't seen the iRacing review in a few weeks and I although I enjoyed the Forza special (it was more special than review) I couldn't tell you a score from it.

IIRC, it was explained that the usual rating scale wasn't the end-all opinion of iRacing. The scale covers many bases, and as incredible as iRacing may be, it doesn't touch on everything that people may look for in a sim:

--There is essentially no single player, other than practice, hardly inspiring

--There is no AI whatsoever, unless you count the spotter

It's half a sim. It may be an incredibly impressive half, and better than others, but it's still a half if it's only MP. That should be reflected in the score--with explanation in the review--which is how it was handled. Perfect.

Those are understandable due to the nature of what iRacing is but the simple fact is that if someone goes by nothing but scores, it SHOULD score low since it doesn't cover all the bases. This is where it's much more important to watch/read reviews to get a full picture of what's being conveyed.

Don't sweat the numbers, listen to what they're saying. Honestly, I think a Pros/Cons list is more useful than numbers. Over-complicating things with Sim/Sim-Arcade/Arcade is going the wrong direction and will just inspire debates about what title goes in what heading.

(Race Pro being Sim )

I've gone back to Forza 3. After the episode, Roy's G27 pedal adapter idea and the FOV tweak, I'm enjoying the heck out of it now. It's no Race Pro, it's a lot more forgiving, but it's the game I've been *wanting* to like for a long time now and it feels a lot better.

[srtfan1 0]

@Defcon Won

I agree with much of what you said. A pros/cons approach may be more effective than a number ratings system. But I also think that all the games/sims should receive the same amount of comprehensive attention before the review.

In addition, I think that using the same ratings scale on a game like Forza and a sim like iRacing isn't practical. They really are apples and oranges, both in intent and execution. That's why I suggested different categories.

[Darin Gangi 1,074]

When I first saw the plei chair I thought it was foldable

Its quite expensive even in Europe for what your getting. the design is nice,but not worth the price Tag by far.

The Plei chair is a really unique design. It was really tough to review because it's a nice, comfortable chair. Does it make a good sim rig.. no..

For someone that likes that style, and wants a casual gaming chair, and has the money, it's really nice. I was able to do some fun racing with it, but it's not the rig I race in.