Your Opinion on the Best Sim Pedals, Heusinkveld Sim Pedals VS HPP Pedals
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Niels Heusinkveld Sim Pedals VS HPP Pedals  

68 members have voted

  1. 1. Which one do you guys prefer?

    • Niels Heusinkveld Sim Pedals
      41
    • HPP Pedals
      27


64 posts in this topic

Hi, first of all this is good for people who are looking to get a high quality set of pedals. I just made this topic to help other people (and maybe myself to give better advice :P ). So, I was wondering which is the winner for you guys.

 

 

>Cheers!< Jrv01

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I think I would probably go HPP as well. Mind you I don't think there's a lot in it between these two, from everything I understand they're both equally high-end, just different. I'm solely going on the ideal that it seems that HPP have delivered hydraulic "done right" and people say their pedals feel righ straight away. Now I think if you are looking for adjustability and recreating the exact feel of a particular car, then HE pedals are the ones. The range of adjustability on those seems unparalleled. You can get the exact right amount of slack and the exact right amount of pedal force as well as the exact right amount of pedal travel on each of the 3 pedals which is damned impressive. If you drive a race car and wanted to build a sim that replicates your car's feel and dynamics the it would have to HE without a shadow of a doubt.

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Search on iRacing forums. I read a post a while ago on there from a guy who runs a simulator for racing teams and they've used all the different high-end pedals. He wrote a very long in depth comparison between different sets. It was before the new HE pedals came out though so he was talking about the original HE sim pedals but, if I remember correctly, he ended up going for them above the HPP- though there was nearly nothing in it. Again it was down to the fact they could dial in the brake feel of he actual race car that swung it.

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Cheers - haven't noticed that one, but I think I know who you're talking about.

By what I gathered Niels has even improved the ultimates so based on that it would mean a win for his set.

I got them at home and would be able to compare them to the CST F1's, but I don't know anyone owning the HPP's.

@jrv01: Don't think you have to be a millionaire. Just need a mate with a different taste reg sim gear, catch up and check it out:-)

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Cheers - haven't noticed that one, but I think I know who you're talking about.

By what I gathered Niels has even improved the ultimates so based on that it would mean a win for his set.

I got them at home and would be able to compare them to the CST F1's, but I don't know anyone owning the HPP's.

@jrv01: Don't think you have to be a millionaire. Just need a mate with a different taste reg sim gear, catch up and check it out:-)

 

I was being sarcastic anyways :P Sadly from where I live, there are almost zero sim guys that take it seriously... My friend does, but he isn't a guy spending 800 dollars on pedals... He just got his CSPs a while ago. :(

 

 

>Cheers!< Jrv01

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Search on iRacing forums. I read a post a while ago on there from a guy who runs a simulator for racing teams and they've used all the different high-end pedals. He wrote a very long in depth comparison between different sets. It was before the new HE pedals came out though so he was talking about the original HE sim pedals but, if I remember correctly, he ended up going for them above the HPP- though there was nearly nothing in it. Again it was down to the fact they could dial in the brake feel of he actual race car that swung it.

 

is this the post you are talking about? http://members.iracing.com/jforum/posts/list/425/3196895.page#7364311

 

".....we are fairly new to sim racing. we use a full motion Dbox actuator simulator with 3 55" screens, a good rig. we are also real world race car racers and have been racing things for over 40 years. our goal with the sim is to try and replicate, as close as possible the simulation to real world and use the best components for the job!

in our pursuit we have been buying and trying many sim products claiming to be this great and the best and all the other self assessed accolades that are advertised. so we have been buying many products to separate the wheat from the chaff so to speak. we have many new BONE-YARD components to be sure. so far with respect to brakes we didnt bother buying logitech, thrustmaster for obvious reasons, we did buy CST's and massaged them to the point where they did work quite well but they were not cheap and never were they really close to real world race brakes. we then went with the Emery Tilton pedal set, good guy, knows his stuff, makes a good pedal set. our experience based on MOTEC data review showed the hydraulics performed much better, they slowed the race car quicker in the same distance traveled versus the CST pedal and trail braking was much closer in % than the CST's. driver feedback was also very good concerning all aspects of braking and braking technique.

we then learned about the Hargett pedal set and ordered a set to try. we received the 2 pedal array and have since installed them for testing and to compare against the Emery Tilton set. we then asked 4 racers of varying race background to come over and do the test. the candidates were; 1 very experienced sim racer, 1 very experienced sim racer who also races a Swift Formula Atlantic car, a race team race car technician who has only kart raced and is new to sim racing (he has been on our sim quite a bit as well) and myself, I currently race a Pro Mazda and an f1000 race car and have been involved in sim racing for only 8 months.

each guy got 30 minutes, first the Hargett pedals for 5 minutes, then calibrate the Hargett pedals to each drivers preference, test 10 more minutes then a switch to the Emery pedal set, calibrate to your style and test for the balance of 15 minutes. we have data and early review show very similar performance between Emery pedals and Marks pedals. in fact the FA driver commented that there was no difference at all in brake performance but certainly they felt different than the Emery pedals.

first change, all drivers wanted to have a firmer pedal than what the orange compression bushing provided regardless of the amount of pre-load put on the bushing. once the black was installed for one driver, with no pre-load the brake was to his liking, the FA driver seemed to like it at abut 30% of the available pre-load, two of us like it at 50% pre-load. no one enjoyed the pedals at max pre-load, way too hard and that surprised us!

other comments were:

less take up or slack in Hargett pedals than the Emery pedals. Emery pedals have about 1/2" to 5/8" travel or take up before the piston actuates, Hargett pedals have 1/8" - 1/4" take up so the brake, actuates / brakes sooner in the stroke than the Emery pedals. the least experienced of the test drivers had very strong positive comments about the throttle, he said that he felt it was better performance than the Emery pedals. That said, the take up in Emery pedal is inherent to race car pedals because of the severe bouncing your feet go through, they don't want you to hit the brake, unless you want to hit the break regardless of your foot bouncing.

summation:

components: emery pedal set uses a series of AN3 brake lines and brake fittings, a pull cylinder. and T's. a 1600 PSI pressure transducer, throttle potentiometer tilton pedal set quality and willwood mc's mounted to a 3/16" aluminum plate. very good look, authentic, well made, perform as you would expect from a hydraulic brake pedal. softer to harder pedal is accomplished through changing a series of bushings and nylon spacers on the pull cylinder as well as a pre-load adjustment, very wide range so a guy can get very dialed in on the brake feel, it just takes longer because of the wide range."

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Since I recon most that votes here haven´t tried both I do the same. Since I just have a pair of HE Sim Ultimates on the way my vote is obvious. Thirsty how do it compare to your CST F1 pedals? I owned the CST GT pedals before and I would be frustrated if the brake feel wasn´t better. I can´t say I found anything to complain about the throttle :)

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Since I recon most that votes here haven´t tried both I do the same. Since I just have a pair of HE Sim Ultimates on the way my vote is obvious. Thirsty how do it compare to your CST F1 pedals? I owned the CST GT pedals before and I would be frustrated if the brake feel wasn´t better. I can´t say I found anything to complain about the throttle :)

 

I actually think the brake on the CST's is very good. On the other hand I gotta say Niels' Ultimates are a significant step up. They are even more solid, more refined and sophisticated. I'm not a mechanical engineer, but looking closely at them it seems like he's using the best machines available to build them. The quality and precision of its build is really impressive. The CST's look like they've been developed by someone who's clever and has a pretty good mechanical understanding using rather conventional machines to build them. The Ultimates look like they've been thoroughly and smartly engineered and built using absolutely top-end machinery. There's no other pedal set on the market getting close to that imo. The max brake load on he Ultimates is much higher of course. I'm applying estimated 40-50kg and using the softest set of rubbers that gets me approx. 3" or 80mm of travel. I like that and haven't considered reducing travel by using different rubbers. All pedals function perfectly smooth. The resistance is bang on and that makes the dosage of forces you apply I guess as easy as it can be.

You won't be disappointed mate :)

Cheers

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Nice to get some reassurance :). Do you have yours mounted GT style or floor mounted? Arc Carbon surely impress also from an engineering standpoint from what I seen. But see and hold is so different things. 

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Nice to get some reassurance :). Do you have yours mounted GT style or floor mounted? Arc Carbon surely impress also from an engineering standpoint from what I seen. But see and hold is so different things. 

 

Mine are floor mounted. I really do like the ARC's adjustability. In that respect they are better than HE pedals imo.

The problem I got with them is they are using a linear potentiometer on the brake. By what I read about it it has a very nice progressive feel. However, I'm convinced a potentiometer reading pedal travel is not the right device for this application.

I think it's impossible using high pedal forces on this pedal without applying a mathematical algorithm to the reading of the potentiometer and I don't see the reason why you should bother working out this mathematical correction for each single configuration you decide to use when there are simple and very precise devices like load cells available. We wanna use muscle memory, so why not just measure pedal forces using a pressure sensor?

I don't see why I should use a tiny sensor in liquid either. The feel of a break pedal in a real car comes from a much larger system of different components. As far as I know there are no rubbers implemented in order to get you some pedal travel.

The way I see it hydraulic brake pedals are using that little sensor to get the readings and then a combination of springs and rubbers to get travel and feel. I actually struggle calling for instance HPP's brake a hydraulic one.

In the end it's just a sensor in liquid, the rest is manipulation to make it feel realistic. Take the unrealistic rubber out of your HPP brake or any other 'hydraulic' sim brake and see how realistic and enjoyable that is. 

I wonder which sensor is actually more precise, the ones you find in a hydraulic sim pedal or the large and dry ones HP and CST are/were using.

As for the issues I got with the ARC Carbon pedals (considered purchase myself before) I'm attaching an example and explaining the way I see it. Took me quite a bit longer than I thought to do that up. Hope it's not entirely wasted and you understand what I mean (edited, messed it up before  :oops: )

 

Btw. I actually think I've calibrated my pedals applying higher pedal forces. It's a bit hard to say, might be rather 60-70kg. I only say that because I roughly measured the travel and I don't want you to think that 40-50kg will give you that amount of travel.

 

post-10260-0-69178100-1396612461_thumb.j

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I think I see your point but not sure. Our feet can´t really know what is used to measure the travel though so I am not certain a load cell would be a given but I recon it should make you more flexible on how to set up the pedals and give a bit more precision if you really want a very short and very stiff brake. However all brake pedals I tried IRL do have travel. The Arc Carbon is a bit special they have no rubber just rely on the air pressure except for some springs, but on all else there is rubber and springs that create most of the progressive feel. What is more reliable in the long run with potentiometre setups or industry loadcells I don´t know.The resistors in the Clubsports don´t really make good PR for loadcells. Pressure transducers overall is supposedly not quite as durable as load cells.

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Mate, I messed it up my explanation about the linearity issue with the ARC Carbons completely  :oops: . Sorry about that...no wonder you got confused (I edited my attachment on my previous post - have a look if that makes more sense to you).

It's strange, but it seems like on dry tarmac you're probably even better off with the ARC's  :shock: . What am I doing? I try to explain why I think the ARC's are not as good as load cell pedals and now I gotta say they are maybe the best choice for iracers. I believe that advantage is a drawback at the same time, i.e. when racing in wet conditions or on gravel/dirt (just generally when grip is an issue).

I find it very interesting. However, I still refuse to believe that non-linearity is the better option.

Would be great if someone here on ISR who's got a better understanding about this can tell us how to look at this thing.

Cheers

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As for wheels I can´t see any sense in non linearity but as for pedals non linearity is not necessarily a bad thing particularly for clutch and brake but perhaps also with throttle if you could custom tune for a specific race car. That said I always run the throttle linear as I run a lot of different cars I don´t want to confuse my right foot to much :D

 

I fail to analyze which pedal sets would be better though in what conditions and why :)

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