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"Console Bashing" necessary?

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Hi!

I have been a follower of the show since episode 18 (If I remember correctly) and I have to say that I love the show in every aspect there is except for one, consoles.

I've been playing sims since Grand Prix Legends (though I did not do too well in it before I got my first wheel) and I do love everything about sims. Been trying all kinds of different genres but I completely and utterly suck at everything apart from racing simulators and I'm not even considered a great sim racer any way. I'm definitely not part of the smaller group of sim racers that actually post regularly on forums or blogs or, heck whatever. I'm part of the much bigger audience that sit back and take it as it comes. I have however been reading forums since forever and I am not sure I'm liking what I see. There is one thing that upsets me about how most communities work, the "elite-ism" going on against consoles.

Now, first of all, let me clarify that I'm a huge fan of the purified sims on the PC and I have probably spent just as many hours in my cockpit as you have in yours playing the same sims with most likely similar peripherals, so my experience is not better or worse then anybody else's, not that it actually matters at all because when it comes down to what I want to play it's a matter of personal preference and not so much concerning the facts about how "realistic" title X is. If I want to play a sim I most of the time boot up rFactor, LFS or any of the Simbin titles, but! I do quite often find myself playing the Gran Turismo (With wheel) or Forza (controller only) franchises simply because it offers a different kind of fun for me. Note, I'm not saying that you, the reader have to feel the same way about what fun is, it's my opinion and "funniness" is one of those things that we all differ in.

Some, well no. Most of you here are what the general gaming community (people OUTSIDE of sim forums) would call "hardcore sim racers" right? You want a title to give you an as close as possible feeling of sitting behind the wheel of the actual car being simulated? Somewhat correct there I hope.

I'm going to sound a bit like a assaulted fanboy here and I think that to some extent that might actually be nudging on the truth. However, that does not mean that I am a so called fanboy of ANY given title. I am quite the opposite to a fanboy, I like all kinds of sims. I'm only going to discuss what can be simulated today for the average "harcore sim racer", not the Force Dynamics-style simulator. I'm only talking about what you see on your screen(s), hear from your speakers and what response you get from your wheel/pedal setup.

Has anyone actually bothered to think back a couple years on the PC sim market? What good physics, good car modelling, damage modelling, lighting effects, textures, shaders etc etc was like? It was superb and some of them still are (F1 Challange 99-02 for example?) good games? They were the top of the line back when they got released and more realistic then previous titles in most cases. Here's the tricky part for me to understand. Some simtitles got improved weight shifting or tire physics or yada yada. Even if two titles improved (this holds up to date I think? GTR/rFactor series, vs iRacing, LFS etc) different things, in different ways, they were both accepted as "best" in general by the sim racing community? How can this be? The "oh my god this is close to reality!" attitude to both games, even though they feel very different in comparison to each other, just doesn't hold up. What will happen when the next generation of sims come out? That title(s) will be closer to reality and the looping resets.Technology can't take us all the way there and there is plenty of flaws in all simulators and that is not personal opinion, that's fact. I won't go into the flaws of titles, I will put up some examples but I'm trying not to be anti-pure-simulation but instead be more pro-"semi sim" or whatever the console games are called nowadays.

In the

Sean said some things that quite frankly made me want to spin my head around concerning the PS3 and Gran Turismo when reviewing the Ferrari F430 Cockpit.

Take a look at the center of the Driving Force Pro and then think for a minute about why there's a Gran Turismo-Logo in the center of it. It was developed by Logitech and Polyphony Digital for Gran Turismo 4: Prologue and it was expected to sell mostly to PS2 users. That's not quite what happened though was it? 900 Degrees of rotations was considered to be "WAY too much" according to a LOT of PC sim racers (I can't believe I actually have to even think about separating myself from this crowd considering how much time I have spent on PC sim racing) before the release of the DFP. Oh and you do know that Polyphony Digital had more then one finger in the development of the G25 as well, right?

The overall feel (ears, hands, eyes) that I get when playing Forza 3 or GT5 Prologue is satisfied at best with the physics but spoiled when it comes to (especially GT's) models of the actual cars. I'm guessing you take damage modelling into consideration when you put cars up on the scales because quite frankly, the GT5 Prologue models is way, WAY more detailed then any of the PC sims I've seen out there and this makes me think that you have to put damage into the same category.

Heck, take a look at some of the models in Gran Turismo 4 and remember that it was released in 2005, five years ago. The physics in the console titles are near what I can get out my PC, not as good at all, but near. It's simplified (or dumbed down?) to the level where more people can get a realistic enough feeling with a controller. Does that mean that it's less of a but it's nowhere nearly as much fun as it is with a wheel.

One of my closest friends is a long-time Console-racing "fanboy" and what I think I am starting to understand that he's not wrong in saying that it's realistic, he's looking at the game from a different view then me. He's looking at the details of the car, replays and more what the car looks to be doing rather then what it feels like it's doing. Does Forza 3 or Gran Turismo 5 LOOK like simulators? Yes! And I'd like to see the car model that looks more realistic (Dirt 2?) on the PC. I have kept trying to tell him to try out PC games instead but to no avail, he's tried them but never gotten hooked on anything else then LFS which he stopped playing after two months or so. So I'm guessing he must be crazy up in the noggin for playing those kinds of games and calling them simulators but, is he?

I tried out Forza 3 with the Fanatec Wheel over at his place when the wheel first got released and, damn, the game looks stunning. It feels good, kind of. Like, not too hard but not a Sega Rally kind of easy either? I think they are pretty darn realistic games. Over-exaggerated and an indescribable "wrong" feeling every now and then but overall, I had a phreakin BLAST playing it.

Damage modelling, something that's always (Gran Turismo 2 that had some form of damage on the wheels?) been left out of the GT Franchise. The reason why has always been elusive, everything from that they can't get it "good enough" or that the "manufacturers won't allow us!" and this has always been my way of defending the PC sim scene, "well, no damage, no sim, crap game, noob, get out!" (no but you see what I mean right?) but even there I'm starting to rethink myself a little bit. Forza 3's so called damage model is better, but in my opinion just barely better then having none at all. The best races I've had in my life did not include a single scratch on any of the cars "upfront". However, I've done a kickflip in GTR2 with no damage happening to my car what so ever. Got sideways just before the peak at Eau Rouge, bumped into another car and took air. Barrel-rolled in mid air, landing on all fours but spun out of control, managed to brake the car into a halt and got ready to grab a smoke when I noticed that absolutely nothing had been damaged with the car. Nada. I did miss the brakingpoint four laps later in Stavelot and my car did most definitely crash as I would expect it to but! Is THAT realistic? If a car did a kickflip in real life, I'm 99% sure that they would have had to pick up scraps for weeks in the forests.

This is what I mean now though, those kind of flaws (Can't say anything about iRacing since I haven't had the chance to play that for more then six hours, two of which was spent DUI:ing.) exist in ever simulator I can think of.

The polish needed to make Forza 3 or Gran Turismo 5 into a "pure" sim is no bigger then the difference between for example GTR2, LFS and iRacing. Because, all three games there feel very different, each has it's own weaknesses and strengths but they are all accepted as "pure" sims?! This makes no sense to me what so ever, consoles are probably closer to being pure sims TODAY, then what the pure sims differ between each other.

Once I actually sat down and tested out Forza I got amazed at what I had been missing out and labelled as "arcade racer" and of course, my main reason for putting that kind of stamp on a game even before I even bought the Xbox came from the forums I read regularly. Having over 8000+ posts on a forum somehow made me think that he could tell me what I was going to get from the game and there's plenty of it happening on most forums I've been on.

Time to rise the hell up and stop being judgemental against consoles. They offer a different experience and if I would magically create a game right now I would absolutely include aspects from the console games, it'd be stupid not too. Gran Turismo 5 is supposed to have over 900 (!!!!) cars?

Embrace them for their good sides and before making statements like "nothing compares to mod x to rFactor!" or whatever, rethink, because most likely there's something out there that does it. It's sad to see one of the most adult gaming communities (Sim racers) acting like they have the last few years. Forgiving simulator or arcade racer? But, maybe that's just elite enough for you and your cool-pills.

Sorry for the long post and if I've broken some general rule of forums here, I believe that this is not even my 50th post ever in my lifetime so my structuring and general experience of posting is not just a little bit limited.

Sean, Darin and Jessica; I Love the show, in, as I've said most aspects. I just think that you should reconsider being more friendly towards the consoles and the few good titles that exist on them and maybe take a good look at how detailed the models of the "Top Simulation Car of all time" list really is in comparison to the "arcade racer" Gran Turismo 5 Prologue.

Just previewed the post, gosh, that's long. Sorry!

Edit: Did some spell-checking, English isn't my native language.

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Long post bud.. hehe

Not sure if that was directed at us (Shaun and Darin), or the general sim racing population.. Shaun and I LOVE console racers.. We had our first SRT Fun race using Forza 3 and we had a blast !

Nothing has ranked higher on the "Shibami" then Forza 3.. Dirt 2 is also one of our favorites. I honestly got pretty far on NFS Shift too because I enjoyed it.

Gran Turismo 5 cars will not be on the top sim car list until we see damage. I honestly don't want to deal with the fanboys whining that it should be a top sim car because of it's beautiful modeling. Top Model, or cockpits..maybe..

At this juncture... I'd be willing to bet without scoring one that a GT5 P car would have a hard time cracking the top 20 on our list with that goose egg for Damage. Physics out of 20, maybe 15-16 on the best cars..

I think you need to look at our shows a little more closely if you think we are sim biased.. I see posts outside this forum calling us "Inside Arcade Racing" because we dare to even cover those titles..

Do I consider GT5 and Forza 3 a sim.. yes.. Dirt 2 & NFS Shift = Sim/arcade. We just got Split Second here to check out.. pure arcade, but looks fun as hell !

We're going to E3 next week to cover nothing but console racers and are really looking forward to it . ;)

Honestly, our show would have had to close up shop a year or more ago if it wasn't for console racing. There's wasn't a big enough audience for us to attract advertisers.. The way it actually happened was we received a DFGT and a copy of GT5 prologue and didn't even have a PS3.. So we thought.. "Lets review it and see what happens.." We were impressed, and the rest is history. I like you was a sim purest and felt that I didn't even need a next gen console because of it.

Long live racing games !!! sim or arcade !

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Wow...I think that was the longest post I have ever read. When it comes down to console vs sim, it's simply a matter of preference. As far as "elite-ism" The first thing I think when I click on the SRT link is ... in the name itself "Sim". It denotes simulator, not Chucky cheese game arcade. The reason I watch the show and forums is because I am a sim nut.. I am hungry for anything new, .... so I muddle through the arcade review stuff till I get to the sim parts.

I can't speak for Shaun or Darin... but I'm betting they lean towards hardcore sim nuts, hence the name Inside Sim Racing.

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Long post bud.. hehe

I'm sorry for the post length, don't know what got into me at all, I started typing and then I had lost an hour and I had a wall of text in front of me.

Now that I re-read the post I felt like I left out all the goodies about the show, but.. In short, SRT is the reason I boot up YouTube every hour just to check if there's been a new video release.

The negatives of the post was not aimed at SRT staff at all, with the exception of a couple comments Shaun said. But, I think that more or less just flipped the burger (spilled the glass? What's it called when you've had too much?) for me.

GT cars in the scale. No, I agree, without damage modelling then I wouldn't honestly care too much about it. I was more focused on what you see on track.

The WCORR off-road trucks that you reviewed today got 9.25/10, This is what that truck looks like.

The Porsche 911 in Forza got the same score, 9.25 and this is.. roughly the same then?

CactusDaveMillard, yes. That's just it though, what makes you say that Forza or Gran Turismo isn't sims? Could it be that you are wrong and that both titles are sims but, more forgiving in comparison to ISI based games for example? I feel a bit like you are saying "it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck (not GT, yuck!) but it hasn't got enough feathers to be called a duck." and that just doesn't add up to me. I could have misunderstood you and if so I apologize.

And now I'm not going to make another wall of text, I was close there. Heh.

Edit here real quick.

Darin, yeah I've seen how "some" forums talk crap about SRT not being.. well, whatever it is they want you guys to be. But! First of all, that particular behaviour on their side is the biggest reason I registered on this forum and not on theirs and secondly, they are the ones who need to rethink their approach. I can quite safely say that out of the 20-40 people I race with on a regular basis I'm the only one visiting "that" kind of forums simply because they do not want to be connected to that kind of communities where opinion is law.

The first post I made in this thread is a post I've been thinking of doing for quite a lot of years but never really found the motivation to do it because I was quite certain the post would be a wall of text that most people would just ignore. I'm quite confident that I've found the right place to post it though.

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CactusDaveMillard, yes. That's just it though, what makes you say that Forza or Gran Turismo isn't sims? Could it be that you are wrong and that both titles are sims but, more forgiving in comparison to ISI based games for example? I feel a bit like you are saying "it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck (not GT, yuck!) but it hasn't got enough feathers to be called a duck." and that just doesn't add up to me. I could have misunderstood you and if so I apologize.

Simulation : "The act of simulating something generally entails representing certain key characteristics or behaviors of a selected physical or abstract system." As technology advances the sims will get better and better, The sims I started out on are very arcade-ish as compared to what we have now...I have always looked for a more realistic experience.

rFactor, I call a sim... but that doesn't mean I think all mods are realistic, and worthy of the tag simulation. in fact I find many that in my mind are very arcade-ish. It's all in the mind of the beholder.

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Wow...I think that was the longest post I have ever read. When it comes down to console vs sim, it's simply a matter of preference. As far as "elite-ism" The first thing I think when I click on the SRT link is ... in the name itself "Sim". It denotes simulator, not Chucky cheese game arcade. The reason I watch the show and forums is because I am a sim nut.. I am hungry for anything new, .... so I muddle through the arcade review stuff till I get to the sim parts.

I can't speak for Shaun or Darin... but I'm betting they lean towards hardcore sim nuts, hence the name Inside Sim Racing.

Actually.. Arcade racers are more for diversion.. I personally always go back to iRacing or something hardcore.

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Simulation : "The act of simulating something generally entails representing certain key characteristics or behaviors of a selected physical or abstract system."

So, you do consider Forza 3 a sim then?

As technology advances the sims will get better and better, The sims I started out on are very arcade-ish as compared to what we have now...I have always looked for a more realistic experience.

rFactor, I call a sim... but that doesn't mean I think all mods are realistic, and worthy of the tag simulation. in fact I find many that in my mind are very arcade-ish. It's all in the mind of the beholder.

Yeah, opinions about what is a sim is in the eyes of the beholder but reality is not biased. There's only one reality.

Maybe I should rephrase my questions since they don't even make sense to me at times.

What aspects of, for example, Live for speed? Sim or no sim? Tire and suspension physics in LFS is far superior rFactors model(s) in my opinion but I am also quite sure that if compared to reality (LFS vs rFactor vs real car), LFS would be ahead of the best rFactor mods in those aspects.

That's a very hard thing to touch on though and I think that's also a huge part of the reasoning behind me posting this thread. PC sim racers (generalizing here and I hate doing that so I will say that there's plenty of exceptions here including SRT) like myself seem to always have a "don't talk bad about my PC sim and I won't talk bad about your PC sim, but let's go nuts on the consoles together!"-style attitude. Well I sure DID have that anyway and that's pretty much accepted by the general PC sim community, not saying that there's no discussion going on between the different PC sim racers but it's easier to ignore the aspects that's not flawless on whatever sim you prefer at the moment.

Console titles aren't anywhere close to iRacing (I am using that as a benchmark of what the best simulator today is) but here's also the catch. iRacing is nowhere close to reality nor is rFactor. In rFactor, I can all of the sudden jump in a F1 car and take it out for a spin around .. whatever track and most likely be able to do a lap without crashing or getting into any bigger problems, could I do that in real life? No, and most likely not you either. Technology only allow us to do as much as the technology can simulate today and today, we are nowhere close to being able to say "that's real!". In the future I'm confident that we will look back on iRacing and say "yeah that was a great game but in comparison to what the sims we have now it's an arcade racer!".

During this time (now) and then (future) the sims will be more realistic but reality won't have changed at all, hopefully. It's only our perception and or opinion of what a real simulator is that has changed and today, in comparison to reality they are all arcade-ish and forgiving. As I said, I've done a kickflip in GTR2 without getting any damage done to the car at all.

Of course there's always the self-preservation factor that you are missing out when racing simulators, I would most likely pee my pants if I got to tag along for a lap in one of them "double cockpit" F1-style cars.

Having a broader view on what a simulator is in general can't do any harm at all, only good things can come out of it as far as I can see. There is however a whole lot of unnecessary conflicts arising by saying "no, your game is not a sim because it is not real enough.". Why? Because whatever sim it is that you are preferring at the moment, it is nowhere close to reality when compared to reality.

The gap between the two "styles" of communities is completely unnecessary and It's shameful for me, as a sim racer to see that kind of childish behaviour from the older, more experienced group. It'd be nice of more people pulled their head out of their rear-end and started to realize that we're all in the same boat. iRacing, Forza, rFactor, Gran Turismo, TDU, LFS, whatever it is that the person is perceiving as a simulator, is a simulator and no one can't say that he's wrong. Racing more realistic simulators does put that person higher on the "hardcore" scale but that does not immediately give him the right to preach to everyone else what a simulator is.

Simulation : "The act of simulating something generally entails representing certain key characteristics or behaviors of a selected physical or abstract system."

(Why can't I make short posts?!)

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my questions since they don't even make sense to me at times.

What aspects of, for example, Live for speed? Sim or no sim? Tire and suspension physics in LFS is far superior rFactors model(s) in my opinion but I am also quite sure that if compared to reality (LFS vs rFactor vs real car), LFS would be ahead of the best rFactor mods in those aspects.

While opions on tyre physics are of course subjective, LFS models suspension only in 2D while ISI physics have modelled suspension in 3D for some time i.e. before rFactor. If you are looking for objective viewpoints I don't think you can claim LFS suspension physics are far superior to rFactor.

On tyre physics I'd say that the only conclusion I've reached is that all sims have flawed tyre physics. GPL was a major step forward but within a couple a of years Dave Kaemmer couldn't bring himself to drive it because of the flaws. GTR was another benchmark, perhaps more as a package than for its tyre physics, but these required a major rethink with GTR2. LFS S2 was hailed as having the best tyre physics but it apparently requires a major re-write. NetKar Pro was the next king of tyre physics but once it had to be used by real racing teams it required a complete overhaul. iRacing was the next king but again, the tyre physics is being completely re-written.

That's a very hard thing to touch on though and I think that's also a huge part of the reasoning behind me posting this thread. PC sim racers (generalizing here and I hate doing that so I will say that there's plenty of exceptions here including SRT) like myself seem to always have a "don't talk bad about my PC sim and I won't talk bad about your PC sim, but let's go nuts on the consoles together!"-style attitude. Well I sure DID have that anyway and that's pretty much accepted by the general PC sim community, not saying that there's no discussion going on between the different PC sim racers but it's easier to ignore the aspects that's not flawless on whatever sim you prefer at the moment.

If you'd been in the sim racing community for a while, say at the old RSC, you would have noticed that this isn't true - over the long term there has been far more inter-sim rivalry than between "sim" and "arcade". Traditionally Papy fans have always hated ISI, as have GP4 fans. LFS fans hate rFactor and Simbin, rFactor fans hate Simbin (but are not too proud to convert their cars and tracks), Simbin fans are not keen on rFactor but are also split in that some GTR2 fans hate RACE 07/GTR Evo.

This does change a little over time. I have noticed that rFactor is less hated in the LFS forum than it once was. This might be due to LFS fans like Niels who arrived in the rFactor forums at RSC with the objective of ridiculing rFactor as a sim but left as rFactor converts.

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i must say that the graphics in some of the console racing games AMAZE me, as a matter of fact i had a blast playing PGR3 on the 360 and is probably one of my fav arcade racer along with GRID. However for me it's all about realism, there's nothing more satisfying than turning your best lap with high difficulty :twisted:

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While I like consoles sims like GT and Forza series especially when it comes to graphics yet console racers has a real downside, they are designed with the controller in mind. The games physics has to "controller friendly" which will make it seems more toward arcade side compared to PC sims. In most console racing titles including Forza 3 steering wheel support seems more like an after thought.

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Good post, i agree a bit. There are areas (especially modeling, graphical effects, polish) that consoles do alot better than PC games, iRacing is years behind in terms of graphics, even though the PC is a more powerful system capable of better graphics.

The last gran turismo game i played is GT4 and i love it, most of the cars are a lot easier to drive than some of the PC sims, and some of the cars are way too unrealistically fast, but also some of the cars are amazing, with the driving aids turned off there are cars that driving wise compete with the PC sims, the one weakness being the "always on" ABS but otherwise they are great.

The PC sims are really good and il admit for the most part they provide a better and more competitive challenging race experience, but there were a lot of aspects that disapointed me. Tracks are great but they dont look that great, though some of the car models are amazing (Bmw Sauber2007 F1 in rfactor is incredible), a lot of the cars look really retro and low quality compared to the console counterparts.

Those console games still require a lot of skill, they feel different and they give a different vibe but i still think they give the "simulation" of racing, though il also agree that they can be slightly toned down in some area (ABS always on). There are cars in GT4 that you have to perfectly control the throttle just to get it around the track, and you get an amazing feel of control wrestling the cars around the track (Pagani Zonda with all aids turned off), it only takes a tiny mistake and the car will bite your head off, and fighting the understeer, followed by the torque oversteer can be really rewarding when you slam out a laptime.

Try gran turismo 4 with Pagani Zonda at monaco, turn off all the aids and use sports tires (normals if you're brave), its quite challenging to get a fast laptime and a complete blast, also you will find that you can find a lot of time tuning the settings of the car. To me GT is a simulator, and always will be, and i look forward to Gran Turismo 5 more than anything.

I haven't played Forza 3 but i have heard great things, and im sure that similar things will apply.

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Well, I have to say I agree with you for them most part. Often times I disagree with scoring of the top sim car segment and also some of the reviews that Darin & Shaun score. I don't mean to knock you two guys - overall you guys and Jessica do an amazing job. I use you opinions so much when it comes to buying games or downloading cars or tracks.

I have this friend that work with that kept going on and on about the VHR mod and that my NASCAR 09 was just a kids game. No where near a sim. So, over a year a go I downloaded this sim and purchased a new wheel to run on the PC to run this VHR mod. And, honestly, I have to say that this mod sucked in terms of being so different than NASCAR 09. I could take my setups right out of NASCAR 09 and make a couple of simple adjustments and run very fast - right out of gate. Dominating my fiend who had been playing this sim for years. The Car models I would rate a 2 - Skins -2 and physics felt almost the same as my kids game (NASCAR 09). The pros to the VHR mod was user controlled pit stops, starts, and pulling out of the garage. However, the Pro's of NASCAR 09 - (Awesome, in car view, graphics, car models, and such an easy to use painting feature) far exceeded the VHR mod. I ended up telling my friend to keep his VHR. I'm not interested.

Now, thanks to Darin & Shaun through I've downloaded a number of other cars and tracks and I've found many new interesting challenges in R-factor. Thanks again guys. In fact I want to give a shout out to the modding team that developed the NSS 2010 mod and The Stock Car Series Mods. These mods still fall shot on car models and skins, but the trade-off for the very different feeling stock cars is worth it.

Now, obviously, I've played a lot of NASCAR 09(&08), plus a lot of Forza 2 & 3 and when you bump into some of the more talented people in those sims - you would have a hard time convincing me that these same folks wouldn't just kick bud in the PC racing world. It's just that they choose not to. And, if it is for same reason I only fool around with R-Factor; GTR2; and LFS - (Lack of Time) - so be it. I can't diminish their racing skills based on my PC racing experience.

I suggest - that those who choose to race on the console - to burn rubber and gas on. Find a racing series that you just can't enough of and either start a league or join a league that does it's best to simulate a racing season. And, spend less time worrying about if this title is the most authentic available? I promise you will win races and lose races; develop friendships and enemies; and discover minor details that you never hear about by those who review a certain title.

As an example, about a month ago I ran 35 laps at the Istanbul Gran Prix in Grid in a touring car. Where me and the eventual winner kept swapping places for the lead throughout the middle portion of the race. As the race was coming to the end I kept pushing my car harder and harder. Mashing the gears - to try to get a bit of a gap on my strongest competitor - despite the gear damage sign getting red... really red. All of a sudden with 5 laps to go I lost 3rd gear. When I paddle shifted down it would jump strait into 2nd gear. I've never done this before with Grid. At last I ended coming in 3rd, but thought it was so cool that I lost a gear - I didn't care. For me it is those minor details that draw me in and make me start practicing a different driving style to gain an edge. And, once I start spending hours on practicing driving with two feet instead of one - trail braking to set the nose of the car before arching it through the corner.... Thats means I'm hooked.

And, when the checkered flag comes out it is that feeling of satisfaction and fun that make this Sim racing sport so awesome and so inclusive.

So, Gas on Boys and hope to see out on the Grid one day :)

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i must say that the graphics in some of the console racing games AMAZE me, as a matter of fact i had a blast playing PGR3 on the 360 and is probably one of my fav arcade racer along with GRID. However for me it's all about realism, there's nothing more satisfying than turning your best lap with high difficulty :twisted:

And there is nothing more frustrating then spinning out on that one fukin corner you can't get right! :lol:

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I think what it comes down to in the most in realistic terms in cost. It costs money to play any racer, console or pc.

For the vast majority I believe consoles' value outweighs any realism that PCs provide. For some its prohibitively expensive to buy the computer, the game, and the steering wheel.

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For some kinds of sims, it's hard to cram them onto a console just due to lack of control space, not horsepower. Although both major consoles accept keyboard input, they don't do so in games for some reason--both even have a keypad that attaches to the controller. Flight sims can be done on them, but some controls have to be left out or automated just due to lack of control options. Not so much with racing sims, there just isn't that much needed. Race Pro is excellent and pretty darn close to the quality of the major sims on pc, but the graphics are probably a little bit better.

The thing is that sims are a small niche in gaming, regardless of your platform of choice. When that's the case, and it's cheaper to put a product out on pc, much less to support it, that's why you see it more on pc than console IMO. It's not that devs don't want to put them out on console, you get a lot of exposure just coming out on a 360/PS3, but finding a publisher to go along with it is not easy. MS won't even let you put the product out without a major publisher.

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I have been a simulation nut for ages. first "racing sim" for me was revs+ for C64. Nowdays the racing sim for me is rFactor because it's has couple of great mods, has a very large community and everything but the game itself is free. Even tough i think that there are only very few mods in rfactor that i can call a great simulation. You are right there that all of the mods cant even get to same level with GT5 or Forza3 for example. But those few mods that have great physics modelling, adds so much to the immersion, the feeling of really beeing inside a racecar, what i think we all seek from race simulations. The realism, or feel of realism to be exact, is the way for me to really "get in there".

Also when physics are well made, it gives us more little things to help even more with the immersion.

For example Forcefeedback (which i think is big part of immersion) cannot feel real if the suspension and tires physics are not made well.

As for damage model, that is the thing that kind of simulates the self preservation for me. if you wreck the car, its "game over" so to speak. Without certain level of "fear" it's doesn't feel that real for me. And ofcourse it's beautiful when car parts fly all over the place ;)

Why is that feel of realism so important to me? Because i've been doing this so many years now.

Most people propably can get that great feeling of beeing inside a racecar with console sims, but for old dogs like me, they just are not enough in that matter. I just cant get into that dream like state, where there is just me, and the car, with console sims anymore.

As you know, more you have something, more you need. I think that this is the case with most longtime simmers out there. Not beeing an elitist just to be an elitist, but because you've used to certain level of realism, you kind of need it to "get in there". Atleast i've spoiled myself that way :D

Well, thats the way i see it.

Cheers!

Voodooman

P.S. I LOVE THE SHOW! You guys are so great.

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